251LC

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hondaror
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Re: 251LC

#46 Post by hondaror » Sat Mar 24, 2018 11:17 am

Some people don't care about the numbers game. That's for the big money sales, which don't fall into most sellers pockets. You're bringing an old towel back to life. Half of my builds will be cobbled together. You are doing an above average job, because your standards are high. So many are going to appreciate what you've done. Enjoy!
Rory
2 1984 RZ350s
1985 RZ350
9 1986-1990 RZ350s
2000 ST2
2005 749
2005 749 with 999 engine

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Ardee
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Re: 251LC

#47 Post by Ardee » Sat Mar 24, 2018 12:43 pm

Jon
Being new here I am wondering what plating process you are using for the olive green finish? I have seen some plating that is darker and some lighter but the pictures you posted look very good. Is the plating expensive? I know costs can be very different in Canada from Australia.
Ken

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#48 Post by JonW » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:16 pm

Hear what youre saying Rory, but I dont think I will be selling this one. I dont ever want to see any of mine, but this one Ive a soft spot for as its different as its got a few very visible mods, and we know how i like mods... lol

Ken, Ive been very lucky and stumbled across a local guy who is not only hilarious to chat with but does plating for a living and to top it off he also can the green we need. The green is over the top of bright zinc and looks very dark in the dark but much lighter in the light, especially flash photos. I think the layer of bright zinc is reflecting the light. Its not silly expensive, but also not so cheap that you would drop in a handfull. I probably drop in a few 5kg buckets each time, one for green and one for bright zinc and its around $200.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

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Ardee
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Re: 251LC

#49 Post by Ardee » Sat Mar 24, 2018 8:22 pm

Jon
Thanks for the info on the plating you use. I can't seem to find much on the internet here in the Toronto or central Ontario area. I may have to rely on other Ontario members for advise. I won't be starting my restoration for at least 6 or 8 weeks but I have always wondered where to get this green plating done .
Ken

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#50 Post by JonW » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:47 am

Plating is a wonderous thing; bucket of rusty shite in = glorious shiny treasure out. I actually clean up all my bolts in vinegar and coat with dry coat, but you dont have to. I also tidy up the heads of bolts and nuts and also hammer back down the heads of the JIS screws. The more work you do like this will mean better plating.
I also fix any issues, bend things to the right shape and weld up the holes and issues in things. its like painting, the top coat shows how much prep you did.

Ok, today I finalised the wheels. The front got another polish and then new bearings were fitted and I located the disk bolts and lock tabs. The rear got a brand new JT sprocket and the correct nuts, all locked with re zinc'd tabs. I also located the cover plate and spacer, snap ring and huge washer - all had been re-zinc'd. These wheels were then put away until I build the bike when I will fit new tyres etc.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#51 Post by JonW » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:52 pm

After much debate Ive finally decided on the pipes for this one... The original RZ 51L units. Wile I had a few options, these seemed like a no brainer they are the ones Yam developed for this very engine.

These are like the later 350 pipes but on the 51Ls the silencer is removable from the pipe and the baffles come out of course. Both junctions have gaskets that are now NLA of course.

The actual pipes I have are not that bad, just needing a lick of paint, but the cans was another matter... as anyone who's ever had a set of these will know. They suffer in any and every crash :(

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They look much better in the pics really... theyre very dented. This is not helped by every owner realising that you can swap the cans over form left to right to hide your latest crash... then you crash again and theyre double dented and rashed. ok on a junk bike, but not on one of mine of course. The original finish is a dull chrome, I could replicate it in powdercoat pretty well, but i dont know what temp these cans get up to so think I will paint them, maybe all black, more 'LC' that way and as a mate said, 'easier to repair later'... hmm.

The baffles for these are very like the earlier models.

Image

Image

So... watch this space...
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

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two-stroke-brit
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Re: 251LC

#52 Post by two-stroke-brit » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:19 pm

They look dog rough .
the after pics will be interesting.
mark
350LC,Athena 392 big bore,stock porting,swiss cheese air box,stock reeds,spec11 pipes.(now TSA big bore pipes)
She might not be pretty but she will always be a fun ride


1982 YAMA RD350LC
98KDX 220R
1967 TRIUMPH TIGER
2001 TRIUMPH TT600

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#53 Post by JonW » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:24 pm

I agree Mark. Right now I'm still in two minds about the finish. I asked on Norbos forum about silencer temps and no one seemed to have tested them before which is interesting. I asked because powdercoat is cured with heat but will become tacky again when heated above certain temps and in this location could pick up chain lube, road debris and dust kicked up by the rear tyre that could ruin the finish. I know you can get high temp powder, but well the truth is that I dont have any and its not really in the ethos of this build to buy something special just for one job and I dont want to outsource this job when I can do another option here, the idea was to be all about fixing up the stuff I have lying about and either make it work by restoring it or simply chuck it out as useless.

Of course, I have the option to paint these with the same satin KBS eXtreme paint as the pipes will be finished in, or powder them either black (satin or gloss) or even push the boat out and powder them 'chrome'. That is a two stage process and very finicky to do without issues as the powder we have is from two different suppliers with different cure times and temps. The attraction is that the 'chrome look' finish would actually look totally OEM as these cans are actually a dull chrome finish when new, very like they were restored, but really thats my reservation as it would then look very much like I just had a good set of RZ pipes lying around that I lazily stuck on the bike, which isnt really the case considering the work. At least if I did the cans black it might seem like I was trying to match the LC's colours a bit... decisions decisions lol!

Anyway... so far Ive pulled some dents, made the ends round again, sanded, blasted, welded, ground, sanded and then multiple times hit them with skims of JB weld and sanded each layer. They now have much the of correct profile again and im almost at the point of having to make the decision on the finish. The baffles were reshaped (how do you bend baffle end plates and gouge the exits?) then blasted and hit them with a high temp black paint.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#54 Post by JonW » Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:57 am

Im still working on the silencers... theyve taken quite a lot of filling with JB weld to get a flat enough surface due to the dings and dents. Tomorrow I'll try powdercoating them gloss black. Gloss of course highlights any surface imperfections so dont be surprised if they come home satin instead lol

I also test fitted the PVs today. I was worried with a 1.5mm over bore that maybe they would need relieving for the pistons, but all was fine. Phew!

In pulling out the PVs I found I bought NOS PV holders a while back... last of the big spenders me lol At least the valves will be the best they can be with those and new seals.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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kpke
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Re: 251LC

#55 Post by kpke » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:54 am

Powder coat with JB Weld Jon?

Can you do that?

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#56 Post by JonW » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:41 pm

Ive done it before on small repairs where ive used it as a filler, which is what im using it for here as well.

JB Weld says:
"J-B Weld can withstand a constant temperature of 500 °F (260 °C), and the maximum temperature threshold is approximately 600 °F (316 °C) for 10 minutes."

Powdecoat is 200 °C for 10 mins. It gets up to about 220 °C max in the oven I use at times during the 10 mins cure. Should be sustainable.

The issue is getting the powder to be attracted initially to the part as JB Weld is not electrically conductive, but if you heat parts first then powder sticks with no problem, of course once cured its no problem, its the initial powder coverage thats the fun part. We sometimes have to use that technique on parts that have already been coated, or areas where the powder hates to grip, like the inside corners of boxes. A good example of that are clutch covers. One of the joys of using a low power, low tech powdercoating rig. :smt003

I will add that I've never tried powdering over something with so much of the surface covered with JB Weld 'filler', so it'll be interesting to see how this goes. It wont be a one shot deal, maybe 3 coats with sanding in between. It could be a bad idea, but it should work out based on what JB Weld say and what ive done before.
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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kpke
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Re: 251LC

#57 Post by kpke » Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:32 am

Very interesting Jon.

I would've thought the conductivity to be a problem to cover the JB Weld.

I once took a set of beautiful Toomeys to a ceramic coater. Different process than powder coat of course. I had filled one tiny dent with JB Weld. On the phone they said they could coat them even with the JB Weld. When I got there they said nope.

You do some amazing stuff and I appreciate your posting here. I can't wait to see the results of these cans.

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#58 Post by JonW » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:11 pm

Well, they are done! I'll put up some pics when I have a bit of time to get them done. But, I'll not leave you in suspense, the process went well. :)

Thanks for the kind words mate, I always hope that people read my posts and decide that if I can do it then they can too. Most of what I do isn't rocket science (in this instance; have you met any powdercoaters? i have... lol) and I hope me blundering my way through and learning as I go gives people the confidence to give things a go themselves. I haven't enjoyed all successes but nothing has been ruined. I've found that if you keep at it and use sound practices along with attention to detail you can usually do a nicer job than the lazy pro you have to pay, well that's always been my experience anyway. I started servicing my own bikes and cars as a teenager when I realised you could buy the tools and parts for about the same price of the first dealer service, the rest of the services saved you money etc. That ethos prevails and I try to do as much as possible myself as you guys know.

Actually the conductivity issue I was worried about wasn't a problem at all with these. I did clean up all the contacts on the hanging rig to make sure they had the best chance. We've found that over time the electrical conductivity drops off with the setup; older kit and also old powder buildup on the hangers doesnt help. When the setup was new it could zap you and give great pain if you didn't ground out the gun after switching off. These days that's no longer a worry. Originally you could shoot a spark if you got too close to the parts with the gun, these days you can get very close with no issues... so the current is plainly much lower.

Anyway, the JBWeld wasn't an issue at all for the coverage. I did heat the later coats as build up is never as easy when you have layers of powder on the part with this low power rig. The further from the metal the outer surface becomes means that getting a nice even coat isn't easy and what looks blotchy before heating can stay that way. Heat means the powder (it's a dust of plastic remember) lands and then stays where it lands, just what i needed.

I did 3 coats for a few reasons. On the first coats I did get some sinking into the thicker JB Weld areas, which are of course on the outside (ie the part you see) as thats where most of the damage had happened. This isn't like paint where its ghosting, its more like a rough area in the gloss. I also still had some areas on the cans that were not perfectly 'flat' and of course if you sand the powdercoated layer you can use it as a thin filler. Sand back to the metal and leave the powder in the dent, the recoat. I used 80 grit, that allows a good key and powdercoat has no issue flowing and leaving the next coat flat. Both of these reasons would have been less of an issue with the satin of course, by using gloss black I did pick the most difficult finish to get right. Any painter will tell you gloss black shows all the marks, dents and problems in the panel and means more work. But, what's the point if it's not a challenge? Kennedy told us that about landing a man on the moon... my concatenated paraphrase: 'we choose to do this, not because its easy, but because its hard'

I stopped after 3 coats as the OEM part numbers were getting lost. No big issue for me on this build, but they do let you know which way round the silencers fit when on the bike (they are in the inside edges, on the top, about 2 o'clock) and I wanted to preserve them if I could. By coat No.3 most of the dents and marks were gone and the surface was pretty flat. Ok, yes there are a few marks in the finish, but you get that when using a home setup. There is dust in the workshop floating around and to be honest there was all sorts of oils gassing off in the early coats, thats the problem of 2 stroke silencers no matter how much you clean them.

Ok, all that said, Ive set the scene... pics soon...
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#59 Post by JonW » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:25 pm

Ok, here are some pics:

I didnt take any photos of the initial stages. But I blasted the surface and went over the whole area with a Powerfile. I then welded up the scratches and dents as much as possible and ground back. I also pulled a couple of the bigger dents by welding on a piece of threaded bar and using a cheapo ebay dent puller.

The first fill with JB Weld. You can see there are quite some gaps that will need more coats. I used about 5 thin coats, making sure to feather the edges and also use a wide sanding block to get as much of the original cylindrical profile back as possible. They were very dented, much worse than the initial pics showed. :/ I tried to keep the original spot weld 'dents' where I could, They are original of course.

Image

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The final look of the JB Weld filler on one of the cans getting ready for the first powder coat:

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We're Cooking!
(terrible photo but you get the idea) - Don't use the oven in the kitchen at home!

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And finally the powder when done:

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Ok, yes... well, the photos of the silencers completed doesn't look like much I guess. They are gloss black and the world is full of things they want to reflect, oil from fingerprints marks them as well of course. Shiny things are trouble... :(

Reflections do tell the story here tho, with gloss black any dent or imperfection would show up. Sure there are some there, im not suggesting there isnt. But compared to what I started with (see the photos further up the page) i'm pretty happy.

I just need to locate another of the sadly long-NLA baffle gaskets now and I'm set... 51L-14755 anyone? I found one NOS one... need another.

Image

As as aside, one of the blokes in the workshop asked me why I didnt do them silver like OEM. LOL... Im going to get that a lot, arent I?! sigh...
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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JonW
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Re: 251LC

#60 Post by JonW » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:19 am

The baffles were blasted and then hit with high temp paint, they will be covered in sooty oil soon so I didnt bother too much with making them beautiful...

Image

After retapping the threads I fitted all new bolts, just need another gasket and these are done :)
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

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