Another Zeel thread

General forum on troubleshooting electrical problems and modifications to electrical systems

Moderator: rztom

Message
Author
yellow79ss
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:46 pm
Location: Littleton, Colorado

Another Zeel thread

#1 Post by yellow79ss » Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:27 pm

As most of ya know, I just installed my Zeel. Kicked it twice and it started.
To bring you'll up to speed, the bike is sitting waiting on the body work and is stock, except for the SpecII chambers. Side note: Ray, RD500, on the board, says my cylinders are "natutral" <no paint> because they've been bored/honed and the machine shop cleaned them for prosseing. No clue. Stock carbs, and I had to remove the brass plugs on the idle screws.
So this is where I'm at. Static timing. I'm cornfused on this issue. My bike is a 1984 USA RZ350 VIN reads 48H. 52 rip roarng H.P. according to the charts. I'm reading ALL the threads here and can't make hide nor hair of the base timing. Some say 34 degs. others say 20 degs. Again, I've read that the Zeel comes pre-programmed at 34 degs. <31K> others say I have to do the "static' timing and program it in. [smilie=scratch_one-s_head.gif]
I don't know what the CDI was (29K50), bike was not running when I got it. Rotor is stamped 29K50. Bike looks unmolested.
I haven't screwed with the hand held programmer yet. Just pluged it in to see if it would power up...it did. .
This is what I did today to get static timing, If in fact I really need it.
Givens: stator plate is fixed.
Givens: Rotor is fixed with keyway
Found true TDC with positive stop method. Mark flywheel.rotor.
Rotate rotor counter-clockwise (engine running diarection) and stop when EXTERNAL magnet is just on the leading edge of the pick-up coil. Mark rotor.
Measure distance between the two marks using a Vinier Caliper, I get 40.55 mm.
Using Arrons method of math,another board member, in a previous post, of 1.0 mm, rotor curcumfrance, equates to 1.5 degs of timing, so 40.55 devided by 1.5 = 27 degs. BTDC static.
I've seen base numbers of 18, 20 and 34, posted in the therads, never 27.
Is this an avrege? and the 29K50 CDI made it 34? Is the Zeel really pre-programed @ 34? Or do I need to insert MY values? "Danger Will Robinson!" LOL, now, I know the differance is only 7 degs, which equates to 4.3 mm on the rotor position. Not much, if ya think of slop in the engine. 19K on the Odometer. With Arrons therory, which I like. I'm a math guy, and numbers don't lie, if your doing the equasion correctly. This method should be spot on..
Any imput would be appreated. Arron, respond if ya will.
I can start the bike with the I.V. bottle and fool with the programmer, after I read and read, and re-read the distructions, but need to know if the "defalt" ignition curve is, in fact, 34 degs. pre-programed in the unit.
Thanks guys! "B"
Please excuse the speeling errors.......I was a math guy, not an english major.

Image
"Don't lose your temper,Honey,or I'll help you find it." May West
______________________________________
1984 Kenny Roberts RZ350 Spec II Zeel 10V
1972 Denco Kawasaki H2 750
1972 Kawasaki S2 350
1971 Perneli "Kawasaki" Jones MT1 75 Mini-Trail

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#2 Post by steveloomis » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:45 pm

There is a lot of confusion it seems. Yes, the zeel comes programmed with the "Static" angle set to 34 degrees. Ignition timing in the stock zeel setup is correct for a stock bike. I would NOT mess with it. The static angle is supposed to be the location of the pickup coil in relation to TDC. Many have reported that theirs is exactly 34 degrees, others have found a little difference of a degree or two. You are safe at 34 degrees static angle.

To verify it, it is easiest to have a programmable timing light. For testing purposes, you set a flat advance curve in the Zeel of 20 degrees, that way it will not vary as you rev the engine. Find your exact top dead center and mark it. Set 20 degrees in the timing light and if everything is set at 34 degree static angle, the light will flash exactly at TDC (because of 20 degrees in the timing light). If you are off a little, adjust your timing light until the marks do line up at TDC The difference is how much off your static angle is. Correct it plus or minus to make it hit with 20 degrees advance in your timing light.

All this does is check to make sure the Zeel "knows" where it is and the advance curve will be exact. Once you are sure the static angle is correct, return to the stock advance curve.

I hope this clears it up for you.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

KR-RZ350
-----
-----
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:27 pm
Location: Colorado

#3 Post by KR-RZ350 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:51 pm

My understanding in installing the Zeel is that you have to find the mechanical advance that is in the flyweel/pick up with the dead stop method.From your post it looks like that is 27degrees BTDC for your bike(Don't know but the three or four different flywheels used on the RZ may have different mechanical advance). This is the value that the Zeel needs to base all advance/retard off of(static angle). This angle is the maximum advance the Zeel can deliver since the Zeel will not be triggered by the pick up until the magnet passes under it.
The 34degrees the Zeel is set at is the default static angle(mechanical advance) that they put in from the factory(and just enough to run the motor). You need to change that value to what your motor tells you.
After the Static angle is set in the Zeel, you should be able to run the 31k curve thats preloaded.

(I am by no means an "expert" on the Zeel but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night)
REI
1985 RZ350
1984 RZ350
1989 TZR250 3MA
1988 FZR400
2003 R1
2008 WR250R

KR-RZ350
-----
-----
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:27 pm
Location: Colorado

#4 Post by KR-RZ350 » Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:58 pm

You Beat me to it Steve :smt003

Extra info. Testing as Steve mentioned can also give you the compensation delay. The Zeel will compensate for the delay in trigger to actual spark. Say you load "x" degrees advance and the timing light shows "y" degrees advance. x minus y will give you the compensation value. :smt004
REI
1985 RZ350
1984 RZ350
1989 TZR250 3MA
1988 FZR400
2003 R1
2008 WR250R

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#5 Post by steveloomis » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:04 am

If you do not have or do not want to purchase an adjustable timing light, You can probably measure exactly 20 degrees BTDC, set the Zeel to a flat 20 degrees, this way your non adjustable timing light will flash at what the Zeel thinks is 20 degrees advance. If it is off a little bit, adjust the static advance plus or minus from the 34 degree setting until it does line up using the same 20 degree flat setting. This will correct the zeel so again it knows it is on the right degree. Return your zeel to the 31K stock setting. I think you will find 34 static is pretty close to right.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#6 Post by steveloomis » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:23 am

By compensation, I think you mean you adjust the static angle to compensate for slight variances in timing marks.

There is one other setting that normally does not need changing, I cannot recall the name of it, but if you have a slight offset in timing due to engine speed, you can correct for it. I don't think you could see it unless you set a flat curve and then watched the timing mark as you rev'd it. I should not move because you set a flat curve. If it does, you can correct it. I've never had to do that.

I just remembered more about the timing.

The 34 degree static advance coincides with the specific degree the trigger coil is triggered at. Once the trigger coil is passed by the magnet on the flywheel, the stock CDI delays the firing of the plug 17 degrees. The stock idle speed advance is 17 degrees. So the stock CDI delays 17 of the 34 degrees then fires at 17 BTDC. We think of advance, but it really is a delay as far as the CDI is concerned. The Zeel is no different. It delays more or less depending on RPM and the advance (delay) curve.

I hope this makes it easier to understand. 34 is just twice 17. Because the Zeel is a delay unit, it cannot delay any more than is set for static angle, it cannot anticipate the trigger coming along, it has to be triggered then apply the delay as appropriate to the rpm and advance (delay) curve.

Make sense to me and I did NOT stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night, in fact I just crawled out of bed to update this as I thought about it. Now I can go sleep....
Last edited by steveloomis on Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

KR-RZ350
-----
-----
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:27 pm
Location: Colorado

#7 Post by KR-RZ350 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:57 am

Its #11 in the Zeel manual. As the revs rise the delay in spark goes up(less advance). I'm still new to the Zeel but it looks like its pretty adaptable to many set ups and guess the compensation setting is useless unless the static timing is set perfect.
How do you find "exactly" when the pick up triggers? At the very leading edge of the magnet or just after? Any way to read the pick up signal with a multi meter to find trigger degree?
I'll need to install the Zeel I bought last year and play around with it...
REI
1985 RZ350
1984 RZ350
1989 TZR250 3MA
1988 FZR400
2003 R1
2008 WR250R

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#8 Post by steveloomis » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:07 am

The way you figure out when the trigger coil is triggered is with a timing light. You cannot guess where the magnet flux will be to effect the trigger. You can only see the results of it. Understanding the static angle is crucial and very easy. All this measuring is fruitless unless you want to prove the 17 degree timing mark is correct. If it is, set a 17 degree flat advance (delay) curve and let the timing light flash on it. Adjust static angle until it hits perfectly. I dare say it won't be off much.

I really think the variances people have seen is due to production tolerances, how strong the magnets are in the flywheel, gap of magnet to flywheel etc. and perhaps a weaking of the magnet causing a shift in when the trigger is enough to be detected by the CDI.

The folks at Zeeltronics say to use TDC and an adjustable timing light, makes it simple. I bought one that was talked about on this board and it works great and not really that expensive.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

KR-RZ350
-----
-----
Posts: 278
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:27 pm
Location: Colorado

#9 Post by KR-RZ350 » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:22 am

Cool thanks Steve. That's a much simpler way of checking if your off a few degrees on static timing.
REI
1985 RZ350
1984 RZ350
1989 TZR250 3MA
1988 FZR400
2003 R1
2008 WR250R

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#10 Post by steveloomis » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:28 am

You mentioned that as the revs go up the delay goes up (less advance). I am sure that it is opposite of that. The zeel removes delay as rpm increases if the advance curve calls for more advance. Kinda opposite of our interpretation of advance. For instance, if the static angle is 34 and the zeel removed all delay, that plug would fire at 34 degrees, it adds 17 degrees of delay to fire at 17, it would add 10 degrees delay to fire at 24 and so on. If the zeel advance was set for 0 degrees, the plug would fire at TDC because it added 34 degrees of delay. This is why the static angle is the max advance you can have.

It is good to have these discussions, others can learn from it.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

User avatar
aaronmvrider
-----
-----
Posts: 6607
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:44 am
Location: Central Coast N.S.W Australia

#11 Post by aaronmvrider » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:59 am

standard crank standard rods... set it at 34 and check it with timing light against rotor marks.... idle advance is 17 degrees as is the marks on the rotor.... i dont think it will be off as you are running oem internals etc...
1 x 4mm stroker rz 375cc 1983
1 x 7mm stroker rz 443cc 1984 (under construction)
1 x rz 500
1 x mv agusta 1000

User avatar
cookie
Posts: 633
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 10:42 pm
Location: Vancouver, Canada

#12 Post by cookie » Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:59 pm

1. Print the degree wheel off the Zeel site and glue it to an old CD.
2. Attach it to the rotor
3. Find TDC and mark with a pointer attached to the motor

Image

4. Turn the motor until the pointer indicates 20 degrees.
5. Mark the rotor and a fixed point with a marker
6. Remove the wheel, pointer etc and get bike ready to fire
7. Set a fixed iggy curve with the zeel handheld at 20 degrees
8. hook up your timing light
9. Start the bike, point the timing light at your marks and see how close it is, adjust it by moving the static (with the zeel programmer)until the marks are dead on.
10. Done

If the marks fluctuate at higher revs you can play with the compensation etc, but I've never needed to do that personally.
For updates and pictures from the race track this season follow me on twitter @dcracing_tony

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#13 Post by steveloomis » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:03 pm

Good pic and description. If you have a standard non adjustable timing light, this is a good way to find the degree of advance.

Again, if you have an adjustable timing light, set 20 degrees in it, set zeel for flat 20 degrees and use top dead center mark. I'd think TDC would be easier to find accurately and mark.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

yellow79ss
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:46 pm
Location: Littleton, Colorado

#14 Post by yellow79ss » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:49 pm

O.K. yesterday I got a chance to fart around with the Zeel. Looked thru the programs on the handheld. I did see that it was pre-programmed @34 stadic. I played with the shift lite settings and revlimiter settings knowing I couldn't screw anthing up. I did see that the timing adv. setting was @0. Question: Is 20degs. just an educated guess? Is it the standard setting that's been used and verified by everyone? Should I start @ the 18 degs. I've seen? Or is it a setting that I need to figure out by running the bike. Also, I saw ign. curve #1, I loaded it, I hope and PV curve #1, I loaded that as well, I think. Thanks for the help. BTW, I haven't started it yet since after the install with the defalt settings. Baby steps.
"Don't lose your temper,Honey,or I'll help you find it." May West
______________________________________
1984 Kenny Roberts RZ350 Spec II Zeel 10V
1972 Denco Kawasaki H2 750
1972 Kawasaki S2 350
1971 Perneli "Kawasaki" Jones MT1 75 Mini-Trail

User avatar
steveloomis
-----
-----
Posts: 1507
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:18 am
Location: Oklahoma USA

#15 Post by steveloomis » Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:19 pm

I do not have the handheld programmer so cannot speak to this. I do use the windows interface. I uploaded the preprogrammed 31K program into my Zeel. If memory serves the Zeel unit does not have the curve in it except the 34 degree static advance. If you look, you should have the settings on paperwork included with your unit. Just enter that as a starting point.

I ran with and still run the standard 31K Ig curves, but I did set a rev limit and have played around with the PV curves. So far I've put on approx 1500 miles and NO problems at all. I have put a cap on the program plug to keep it clean and dry. Some have used a 4pin trailer connector cap as it fits well. I will get one as well as it will fit better than the plastic cap I dug up.

The 20 degrees referred to is just for checking the static angle and is just a convenient setting the bike can live with for stationary testing. Do not run this 20 degree flat curve on the road, use the 31k curves.
'81 RD350LC hybrid w/84 RZ engine. Zeel, Old style Toomeys, Yboot and filter 420 main 22.5 pilot, Air screw 2.5 turns out, DJ needle 2nd from top, Canadian VM26 carbs.
'85 KR/RZ US. Tank is seeping causing a blister in paint.....

Post Reply