NO Spark UGH

General forum on troubleshooting electrical problems and modifications to electrical systems

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brrrappp
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:21 pm
Location: USA

Re: NO Spark UGH

#31 Post by brrrappp » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:51 am

There have been a number of recent posts in this forum about dealers with new old stock (NOS) CDI boxes located in both US and in Canada.
As far as connections go, I'd need to look at mine again to give you the play by play or take pictures.

As I remember, one year CDI used a gang connector and the other year used several individual male/female connectors. I think all the color codes were the same except for one wire so it was easy to figure by elimination.
You could cut the connectors from your bad box leaving enough wire and solder them to the new. with careful use of shrink tubing and elec tape the finished job would be difficult to tell from original.

Also, RZsunlimited has rebuilt/tested 1984 CDI boxes. I didn't ask how much they wanted for them.

In the end, your decision is probably goal based. Is your plan is to keep this bike long-term for pleasure riding? Do you plan to keep long-term for classic preservation and possible resale? Or short term resale with a profit?
If your intent is to keep it as a regular use rider with no plans for a maximum-value resell, then the zeel is probably your best choice.
If you are looking for a quick turn for profit it could go either way right now in today's market.
If you are looking to be a long-term preservationist with an eye toward max-resale 5-10 or 20 years from now......OEM only.

My bikes are not showroom / concourse quality but they are 90% of that level. I only ride each of them about 50-100 miles a year. My philosophy is to stick with stock OEM parts except for the very most common upgrades of the period. For me that means pipes (preferably Toomey), jet kit, braided steel brake lines, tires. One of my bikes has painted wheels. I recently bought some used original gold wheels as replacements. My goal is long-term preservation with close to max-resale and that dictates my parts purchases and my method of repairs.
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hotshoe93
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: NO Spark UGH

#32 Post by hotshoe93 » Sat Dec 01, 2018 9:06 am

:smt007 :smt007 Looking to keep the bike a good 10 years and ride 200-300 miles a year,, if a person went to a zeel and did not cobble things up , you could always go back to the OEM box ??? not thinking about resale as Im sure I would loose money, but sometimes you have to overpay ,again ugh :smt007
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84 RZ350 Toomey
2003 FZ1 Yellow/Black
BULTACO ASTRO
Champion framed Kawasaki F81m
BULTACO SHERP-S Brakeless Dirt tracker
ZUK A-100 w/ FACTORY HOP UP
:smt026

MK
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:44 am
Location: Wolfenbüttel, Germany
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Re: NO Spark UGH

#33 Post by MK » Sat Dec 01, 2018 12:50 pm

jrodenhiser wrote: Fri Nov 30, 2018 7:19 pm MK, what fails more, batteries or source coils? No battery, no sparky with PDCI right? correct me if I'm wrong.
Clear answer: The source coils.
If the bat fails, the generator still produces 12V supply, that is to some extent "consumed" by a faulty battery. But as long as you have above 8-10V (for example with lights off), the ignition still works. So even with a "failed" bat, you can still ride.
People even use DC CDI with a battery eliminator. For example the Ignitech has a setting to leave the first n rotations to internally charge the capacitor first and then being able to produce a spark even with weak voltage supply.
If one source coil fails, the ride is over. Always.

Technically its simply the better solution and if you look around at bikes "after" the RZ, there's DC CDI's for example in the RGV250, Aprilia RS250, TDR250, TZR250 3XV, VTR1000, ....)

BTW: I run DC CDI's since around 2005 and only one time I had a breakdown due to an empty battery.
But that doesn't really count because I forgot to plug in the rectifier after working on the bike. After 8 km that ride came to an unexpected end ...

It will be different if you just ride 100 mls a year. In that case the bat will always be problematic and you'd be better off using the source coils.
Also if the goal is staying original, then get a stock CDI that exactly fits what you need and quit whining.
(Note that not all rotor / stator / CDI combos work.)

And one necessary word about "going back": Leaving the source coils unconnected can damage them due to overvoltage being induced, but not being consumed. It can happen or not (I never had it myself, but people in Germany reported failures).
You can either use a stator with already faulty source coils, special stuff without source coils and increased 12V windings or use a Zener diode to protect the unused source coils.
Bye
Martin

jrodenhiser
Posts: 191
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:55 pm
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Re: NO Spark UGH

#34 Post by jrodenhiser » Sat Dec 01, 2018 2:59 pm

MK I hear ya, but I just don't think someone should make the choice based on source coil failure, the rate isn't that high, no where near battery failures or failures of the 84 cdi. That's just not a good basis to make the decision for some guys when a perfectly good, simple, plug and play replacement is available that works the same way as the stock bike. Lots of guys just want simple. I have zero customers that are unhappy with this unit. I know what you're saying, just don't agree that its that much of an issue, but for sure respect your opinion and appreciate what you're saying.

brrrappp
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:21 pm
Location: USA

Re: NO Spark UGH

#35 Post by brrrappp » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:19 pm

Regarding your question about going back to OEM at a later date....

What is the likelihood that you will find a New Old Stock OEM CDI box several years from now?
What do you think the price of a Used RZ350 CDI will be in 5 more years? 10 more years? 20 more years?

Will you even find a zeeltrontic for the RZ350 10 years from now?

On the other hand, will any of us even be here 10+ years from now?
Accidents, health, market conditions, family life, "Green Legislation" ....who knows if you will even be interested in the bike 10 years out?
You could buy a zeel today install it, get riding, be happy.
AND
Keep an eye out for a good deal on a used OEM CDI for the next several years.

MK
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:44 am
Location: Wolfenbüttel, Germany
Contact:

Re: NO Spark UGH

#36 Post by MK » Sat Dec 01, 2018 3:39 pm

I have RD's since 1987 and have been riding them a lot.
Also assisted hundreds of people first hand with ignition issues; mostly in Germany and surround and with models from '80 to '90.
Up to my experience the source coils on the 83-85 models fail much more often than CDI's. The 86 and later ones often suffer from failures in the 12V circuit.
Best case was when I visited a friend to check out what's wrong with his RD and when I wanted to go home my own one wouldn't start (turned out due to source coil failure).

The good news: It still includes a small possibility that it's different in the US and you're right on 84 CDI's.
Bye
Martin

brrrappp
Posts: 603
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:21 pm
Location: USA

Re: NO Spark UGH

#37 Post by brrrappp » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:03 pm

https://www.ebay.com/itm/382657554697?ul_noapp=true

FYI there is a 1984 CDI listed on eBay for $149 obo if you are interested. The seller thinks this is a 1985 but it is a 1984 CDI based on the picture. I'd probably look for a 1985 if I was in the market but I thought I should let you know about it anyway.

hotshoe93
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: NO Spark UGH

#38 Post by hotshoe93 » Sat Dec 08, 2018 6:30 pm

Thx I see that , I guess it’s a 84 as I tried to look at 85 plugs and they do look different,, 84 cdi box kinda scares me , you know how long will it last? At $150 I can get a zeal for about 80 more and be done with it?? Not sure what to do. Thx again
84 RZ350 Toomey
2003 FZ1 Yellow/Black
BULTACO ASTRO
Champion framed Kawasaki F81m
BULTACO SHERP-S Brakeless Dirt tracker
ZUK A-100 w/ FACTORY HOP UP
:smt026

hotshoe93
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:57 am
Location: Columbus Ohio

Re: NO Spark UGH

#39 Post by hotshoe93 » Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:36 pm

After 12 years the bike started and sounded great after second kick.. thx to all for your support. U guys are the best
84 RZ350 Toomey
2003 FZ1 Yellow/Black
BULTACO ASTRO
Champion framed Kawasaki F81m
BULTACO SHERP-S Brakeless Dirt tracker
ZUK A-100 w/ FACTORY HOP UP
:smt026

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