Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impressions

General forum on troubleshooting electrical problems and modifications to electrical systems

Moderator: rztom

Message
Author
garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impressions

#1 Post by garcenw » Tue Jun 21, 2016 10:05 pm

I started a new thread on this as the previous one was more about feedback. I got the Weiltronics CDI on Monday. As you can see in the pics below, it is a very close replica of the OEM unit. Some comments/observations:

1) The harness comes out of the center of the right side as opposed to the rear of the right side, but this in no way impedes installation.

2) Overall case dimensions are the same and the mounting holes line up perfectly.

3) The replica connectors are of lower quality. It appears that they made a mold for the connectors using some original connectors and the some of the tolerances are a little off. The 2-terminal and 3-terminal connectors go together no problem, but the locking tab is missing from the 2-terminal one. The locking tab isn't broken off - what's left is actually smooth. It appears they copied a connector with a broken locking tab and filleted any sharp radii in the injection molding tool. The 4-terminal connector is the issue and is a very tight squeeze to mate to the main harness connector. It goes in, but is a bear to disconnect. It just seems slightly oversized (perhaps a few thousandths of an inch here and there).

4) I ran the bike on the centerstand, but did not take it outside as of yet. I did simulate a little load by running it in 1st gear. It starts easily and runs cleanly up to 7200 rpm, then begins to stumble and is very difficult to get above 7200 rpm (coolant temperature was on the lower 3rd to the middle of the gauge when I tried this). This is not the case with the OEM 29K-50 CDI. It runs cleanly across the tach until it gets too hot, then dies. I contacted the vendor about it and he said that both the spark plugs and the plug caps must be of the 5K ohm resistance type. I'm using BR8ES, so the plugs are certainly the resistance type. When I get home tonight, I'll check the OEM caps I have installed. As the bike came with resistance spark plugs from the factory, I suspect the caps are of the non-resistance type. The Wieltronic CDI unit does have a sticker on it warning to use both resistance type caps and plugs, but doesn't specify what resistance. I guess when I first read it, my brain processed it as "either-or". If the caps are of the non-resistance type, I will order some NGK resistant type caps (suggestions welcome) and report back. If that doesn't work, I'll be looking to return the unit and either try another one (if the vendor is willing) or get a refund and go with Zeeltronic.

Image

Image
Last edited by garcenw on Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
JonW
Posts: 10599
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:33 am
Location: Sydney
Contact:

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#2 Post by JonW » Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:07 am

Interesting stuff and a good review, thanks for that. Hope you can get it working for you.

As an aside, what do these cost?
80 XT500 Supermoto!
81 RD350LC Resto
82 RD421LC Hybrid
82 RD350LC decapitation project
82 RD250LC JDM '251LC' YPVS
83 RZ350 Resto
84 RZ500 Resto
85 RZ350 F1 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Resto
86 RZ350 F2 Hybrid

Like Watches? www.PloProf.com & www.DeskDivers.com

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#3 Post by garcenw » Wed Jun 22, 2016 3:38 am

Jon,

Cost was $184 (US dollars). Shipping to the US from Belgium was another $32 and they ship via UPS. It took him two days to ship after ordering, but I got it in just three business days after that. Your profile says Sydney. If that is Nova Scotia, I'd expect the shipping to be comparable. If it's Down Under, I suspect the shipping would be pricier. found on EBay (link below), but I'd hold off on any ordering until we see how the vendor works out.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/331084569879?_t ... EBIDX%3AIT
Last edited by garcenw on Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#4 Post by garcenw » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:48 am

Per the venders instructions, I checked that the spark plug caps and the spark plugs are of the resistance type. One OEM cap measures 10.1 kOhms and the other measures 10.8 kOhms. The plugs are BR8ES and thus are also resistance style spark plugs. The Wieltronics CDI unit has a sticker indicating that resistance caps and plugs must be used, which is what I’m doing, but does not specify the resistance. The ad also doesn’t give any direct indication that both resistance caps and resistance plugs are required, but if one is using the Yamaha OEM equipment (or equivalent) as I am, you will have resistance caps and resistance plugs.

Just to make sure nothing else was wrong, I also did the following:

1) I checked all igniton related electrical connections and they were fine.

2) I checked the primary coil on the ignition coil. The specification is 0.33 Ohms +/-10%. It’s hard to get an accurate reading on many multimeters on resistances below 1 Ohm, but nonetheless I made a measurement with my better meter (a Craftsmen imitation of a low end Fluke and probably not as good). My meter fluctuated a little bit between 0.2 and 0.4 Ohms, but spent the most time dwelling at 0.3 Ohms, so best as I can measure with that meter, it seems to be within specification. I also measured it with a bottom of the barrel, 25+ year old Radio Shack multimeter that I trust even less and it fluctuated between 0.7 and 0.8 Ohms.

3) I measured the secondary coil on the igniton coil. The specifications is 3.5 kOhms +/-20%. I measured 3.75 kOhms so that part of the coil is also good.

4) I measured the resistance of stator high speed coil (the speed zone where the Wieltronic CDI stumbles). The specifications is 5.3 Ohms +/-20%. I measured 5.6 Ohms so that is OK.

5) I measured the resistance of stator low speed coil. The specifications is 225 Ohms +/-20%. I measured 262.6 Ohms so that is OK.

6) I measured the resistance of stator pick-up coil. The specifications is 115 Ohms +/-20%. I measured 119.4 Ohms so that is OK.

I basically sent the above to the vendor. I’ll let you all know what he says.

RuZty
-----
-----
Posts: 3584
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#5 Post by RuZty » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:55 am

Check the quality of the connections in your harness from the stator, I have had the wire on one of the connectors fail down to a couple of strands and cause some intermittent problems. Make sure you have a good ground to the frame too. It wouldn't hurt to actually take it for a ride as well to get a better idea how it is behaving.

MK
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:44 am
Location: Wolfenbüttel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#6 Post by MK » Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:44 pm

The effect described occurs when mixing up different CDI/rotor/stator combos.

Try exchanging red and green wire that go from the source coil to the CDI. In some cases that helped.

If not, get a programmable unit which would be my advice from the beginning especially when hearing the price of over 200 bucks.
Important detail: Zeeltronic offers two different types. The PCDI draws the energy from the source coils (i.e. they need to be functional), the PDCI is a DC CDI only gets 12V from the battery (works for total loss applications or when stator is faulty).
Bye
Martin

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#7 Post by garcenw » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:49 pm

Martin,

I looked at the wiring diagram and it wasn't technically obvious why swapping the pins on the coil would help. I'm a mechanical engineer and we do use electrical analogs in our calculations (e.g. RC analogs in heat transfer), but I need a little education on this perhaps because I'm not familiar with intricacies of the inner workings of the CDI pc board or my lack of knowledge on inductive circuit elements. I'd be grateful if you can help he'd shed light on my ignorance.

In any event, I did pop the pins out of the connector and swapped them. It did make a difference, but did not completely fix the problem. Before the pin swap, the Wieltronics CDI just didn't really want to rev past ~7200 rpm. It might, but couldn't maintain, dropping back to ~7200 rpm. With the pins swapped, that point has moved up to ~8300 rpm.

-Walt

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#8 Post by garcenw » Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:52 pm

RuZty,

I checked the pins on the main harness side of the connectors and all the crimps over the insulation looked solid. I did not pull the pins (I can, just didn't have time today) but it seems unlikely that the stripped wire side of the crimp would undergo fatigue failure. Is that was where yours failed or was it external to the strain relief portion of the crimp on the insulation?

- Walt

MK
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:44 am
Location: Wolfenbüttel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#9 Post by MK » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:05 am

Red, green and brown are the wires of the source coil.
Swapping red and green just changes the low and high rpm part, i.e. the CDI sees the voltage on the other input channel.
That's an observation people had over the years when swapping wires. So just empirics, no science (as I'm also only a mechanical engineer ...)

Another swap you could try is the pick up (white-red / white-green). It changes the advance value, but usually to the bad side.
Here's the explanation:
http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Btw: At this point I'd go and buy a strobe to check timing. You'll need it anyway for setting up the Zeeltronic but here it helps finding out what's going on.
On the stock flywheel there's a H shaped mark and it should line up at idle with the mark on the stator plate at around 2 o'clock position. When revving up to 3500 the H should wander clockwise, over 3500 counter-clockwise.
The left leg of the H is around 20 deg BTDC.

Another popular issue with aftermarket stuff is the PV signal. If you have an electronic tach and it shows the right rpm, you're fine.
If not remove the left PV cover and check PV actuation.
If revving over 6000 it should start rotating counter clockwise. At around 9-10 k rotation ends and if revving down it should rotate back to the start position.
If it's not rotating or stops far different from 9 k, the PV signal is faulty.
A PV that's not fully open will not rev to the end. Completely closed gives you some 7500 max rpm.
Bye
Martin

RuZty
-----
-----
Posts: 3584
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2003 11:11 pm
Location: Southern Ontario, Canada

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#10 Post by RuZty » Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:19 am

garcenw wrote:RuZty,

I checked the pins on the main harness side of the connectors and all the crimps over the insulation looked solid. I did not pull the pins (I can, just didn't have time today) but it seems unlikely that the stripped wire side of the crimp would undergo fatigue failure. Is that was where yours failed or was it external to the strain relief portion of the crimp on the insulation?

- Walt
Any wiring failures I have seen have been the wire itself at the crimp, not the crimped on connector. Go with Martin's advice and verify proper PV operation next.

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#11 Post by garcenw » Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:11 pm

Martin,

Doh! I was looking at the wiring diagram and forgot the very tests I ran (i.e. R on low and high speed coils). Sorry for taking your time on something I should have understood.

The CDI I bought wasn't designed to also take over for the PV controller, but of course there is the signal wire between the CDI and PV controller. I may not get to it this weekend, but will check the PV operation with the original (but intermittent after warmup) CDI and the Wieltronics CDI by the middle of next week. I'll report my findings here.

For whatever it's worth, prior to reading your response above, I re-checked he plug gaps and the plug color. Gaps were both 0.028" (0.7 mm) and the plug insulators had a nice amber color.

Image

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#12 Post by garcenw » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:59 am

The vendor came back with what I consider a Band-Aid. He wants me to set the plug gap to 0.020 inches (spec is 0.028 – 0.031 inches). I haven't done it yet, but that doesn't sound like a robust solution. What do you all think? Time to return it and ask for a refund?

I have a strobe (haven't used it in 17 years!), so I checked the timing. Clockwise and counterclockwise are taken as if you were standing on the left side of the bike looking at the flywheel. The results are as follows:

1) With Wieltronics CDI:
a) Idle - mark between the "H". Here is a video you and can best see the timing mark near the end (past 25 seconds):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VDdc6p ... e=youtu.be
b) Up to ~3500/4000 rpm - "H" moves clockwise
c) Above ~3500/4000 rpm - "H" wanders back counterclockwise slowly with increasing rpm, but occasionally unsteady at high rpm (misfiring thus not providing signal to strobe?)

2) With "iffy" 29K-50 OEM CDI:
a) Idle - mark between the "H", but occasionally unsteady
b) Up to 3500 rpm - "H" moves counterclockwise (not a typo - counterclockwise)
c) Above 3500 rpm - "H" moves back clockwise, but very quickly; it doesn't take many more RPMs for it to snap back

I did the PV check:

1) With Wieltronics CDI:
a) Begins moving at 6000 rpm, but a little unsteady; unsteadiness coinciding with stumbles and will
rotates back slightly here and there; not sure if the misfire is due to PV signal error or PV signal
error is due the misfire

2) With "iffy" 29K-50 OEM CDI:
a) Operates normally and smoothly changes position with rpm above 6000

I made another observation: I don't run any high RPM tests until the temperature gauge is at least ~1/4th thru its sweep. I have the most issues with Wieltronics between 1/4th and 1/3rd of the sweep of the temperature gauge. In that coolant temperature regime, it stumbles and, at times, wont rev past ~7200. Once it gets past 1/3rd, run quality improves with increasing temperature. At close to halfway up the temperature gauge (just before the white styling line on the gauge face), it appears to run generally OK with just the rare stumble/misfire. It's a very noticable difference .

MK
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 11:44 am
Location: Wolfenbüttel, Germany
Contact:

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#13 Post by MK » Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:37 pm

My bad.
The left leg of the H is about 19-20 deg. Right of that is a higher angle, left a lower angle.
So starting from idle the advance increases and unnder a strobe it looks like the rotor wanders clockwise.
(What I meant was that a higher angle is found on the right side = counterclockwise direction)
This means your stock CDI behaves as expected and the craptronic does neither on advance nor on PV signal.

And yes, time for a refund and contacting either Borut @ zeeltronic.com or ignitech.cz .
You'll be surprised how cheap programmable units are ...
Bye
Martin

garcenw
Posts: 80
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:44 am

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#14 Post by garcenw » Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:46 pm

Yep. It was stunning to see it retard timing instead of advancing it. The spark advance control circuit is ass-backwards on the Wieltronic. I doubt it is an isolated issue, especially if the board was built in one lot on a low volume pick and place machine. It sounds like they did inadequate testing when developing or in manufacturing. A refund request has been submitted. We'll now see how much integrity the vendor has.

To everyone else out there, if you have a Wieltronic CDI on your machine, it behooves you to check timing. Another member here, "Srhiskx", has a Wieltronic on his 1984 RZ350 (same year as mine). I sent him a pm to read this thread as a heads up.

Martin, thanks for the help. You saved me some time. With timing non-adjustable on a stock RZ350, it would have been awhile before I drilled down that far. I just wouldn't have assumed they got part that wrong.

I will support John at Economy Cycle and buy my Zeeltronic from him. I don't mind paying a little more as he supports the forum. Outside of Spec II pipes, I have a stock machine and and the supposed plug-n-play nature plus the matching form factor of the Wieltronic seemed attractive. Oh well - now we know. It was a lesson learned.

Srhiskx
Posts: 80
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 6:28 pm
Location: Cedar Rapids Iowa

Re: Wieltronic 1984 RZ350 29K-50 replica CDI - First Impress

#15 Post by Srhiskx » Sat Jun 25, 2016 11:03 pm

Walt, I'm gonna check mine. I rode mine after you posted your results and mine did stumble under load about 8400. My pipes make my motor sign off at 9500, so I short shift. I also got hold of a good factory CDI box and I'm gonna give that a try also. Thanks Steve
84 RZ350 Allspeed GP replica pipes, milled head, PWK 28mm Keihins, Y air boot/ k&n filter, VForce4’s, Zeel, Dynatec ignition coil,R6 calipers, Ohlins, sonic springs 80wt fork springs, FZ1 master cylinder.

Post Reply