Banshee transmission in track bike

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DRC
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Banshee transmission in track bike

#1 Post by DRC » Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:55 pm

I did a search but basically couldn’t find anything.

I bought a cheap RZ350 and to use the bottom end for my LC Hybrid. I’ve basically got a rolling chassis, crank and top end left over and was thinking about putting it back together and putting it on the track. There are 3 organisations locally where the RZ is eligible and my son has pretty much claimed ownership of my SV.

I’ve been looking around locally for a bottom end but not having much luck. I have been offered the bottom end for a Banshee which should work fine as I don’t need the oil pump, tach, etc. and I still have the RZ Stator and electrics. The only thing I’m not sure about is the transmission. There seems to be varying opinions on the internet. Would it be suitable for the track?

From what I have read it (most of it is probably rubbish) the banshee seems to be more of a MX box than the RZ and in order to gear it for top speed first would become very tall, a lot of clutch required to get it moving, but the ratios are closer and more evenly spaced.

Anyone ever used a banshee transmission? In my case it would be for track only

Thanks

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#2 Post by ghezzi » Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:53 pm

I have Banshee 1st (and maybe 2nd???) in my 485 hybrid, from memory it is lower than RZ but I am also running 2.68:1 primary gears and 18/40 final drive.

The reason I believe was to lower first gear to compensate for high final gearing ................. the rest of the gears (I believe) are the same.
Banshee would have had very low final drive ratio, a low 1st was needed for slow work off-road.

I say use the Banshee bottom end, and change rear sprockets for individual tracks.
If you are really concerned, check part # for each model on CMSNL
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Questo vecchio rz
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#3 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Tue Oct 25, 2016 2:57 pm

Here is a listing of stock Banshee & RZ YPVS gearbox ratios and aftermarket NOVA gearsets both their A. racebike ratios ( not suitable for roadbikes) then their B compromise road bike ratios.

I've never given much concern to the gearing ratios, as far as 1st gear is concerned on a race bike I dont see it ever getting used except on the start? And I certainlly would not want it anything that might enhance wheelies. Im aware of undercuting & superfinishing but gearbox ratio calculation would be totally new to me.
Theres some ratio info here I just dont understand at this point, such as reduction and the split #s prior to ratio #s.
If someone would like to explain it in simple laymans terms that would be quite helpful

BANSHEE:
Transmission primary ratio: 66/23, 2.869

Transmission 1st gear ratio: 32/13, 2.461
Transmission 2nd gear ratio: 29/16, 1.812
Transmission 3rd gear ratio: 27/18, 1.500
Transmission 4th gear ratio: 25/20, 1.250
Transmission 5th gear ratio: 23/22, 1.045
Transmission 6th gear ratio: 21/24, 0.875
Transmission final ratio: 42/13, 3.230


RZ350:Yamaha YPVS Standard Gearset :

1st 14 - 36 2.571:1
} 30.8%
} 25.9%
} 17.8%
} 11.2%
} 7.6%
2nd 18 - 32 1.778:1
3rd 22 - 29 1.318:1
4th 24 - 26 1.083:1
5th 26 - 25 0.962:1
6th 27 - 24 0.889:1

Overall reduction 1st - 6th 65.4%

NOVA A. (race) close ratio gearset:
1st 18 - 34 1.889:1
} 23.2%
} 15.4%
} 11.7%
} 7.7%
} 7.7%
2nd 20 - 29 1.450:1
3rd 22 - 27 1.227:1
4th 24 - 26 1.083:1
5th 25 - 25 1.000:1
6th 26 - 24 0.923:1

Overall reduction 1st - 6th 51.1%]

NOVA B. (road) close ratio gearset:
1st 17 - 33 1.941:1
} 25.3%
} 19.0%
} 11.3%
} 8.2%
} 7.5%
2nd 20 - 29 1.450:1
3rd 23 - 27 1.174:1
4th 24 - 25 1.042:1
5th 23 - 22 0.957:1
6th 26 - 23 0.885:1

Overall reduction 1st - 6th 54.4%
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#4 Post by motoholic71 » Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:09 pm

It's very simple really. The percent figure regards overall gear ratio drop from that gear to the next or simply rpm drop with every shift.

First thing; The RZ and the banshee have more or less very similar 1st and 6th gears ratios, so as far as off-the-line and top speed. that wont change much, although the banshee has slightly taller ratios overall.

The main diference lays between bottom and top gears.

While the banshee has the gears spread evenly, i.e. you will observe the same rpm drop with every gear change, the RZ has the first gears more spread out and as you go up the shift the gears become closer and closer together, to the point where you will have like less than a thousand rpm drop from 5th to 6th.

Why? simple. To overcame the wind resistance, which close to the top speed is so strong that if the engine drops below the power band, it's impossible to pull through.

With a banhee box geared to the same top speed as the RZ, you loose speed as you shift to 6th, then you go back to 5th to regain speed only to loose it again when you retry 6th.

If you go up hill and facing strong wind this may even happen from 4th to 5th, simply because the gears are so far apart, the engine leaves the powerband and instead of gaining speed, it starts loosing.

Real race bikes will have a very tall 1st gear to be used on the slowest turns, so the clutch is done after a couple of starts, and the gears are all very close, although the 1st ones are a bit more apart just like the RZ.

Nova Racing will provide a set of 1st, 2nd and 3rd gears to be used with the existing RZ gears, making 1st almost as tall as the normal 2nd and you end up with a gearbox that will allow you to drop from 6th to 2nd in a heartbeat without stress, just because the gears are so close together.
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#5 Post by MK » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:46 am

Not sure what RZ means to you.
The Banshee gearbox will fit all YPVS models, but not the 80-83 LC models.

I use the bansheee gearbox in my race bike solely on kart tracks. Here I specifically need a bigger difference between 5 and 6, so that gearbox is a good solution.
I've also heard reports that using the banshee gearbox in road going bikes is very beneficial. Gives you a kind of 5 plus overdrive system.

For an advanced race use I agree that you'd better use a Nova solution with a tall 1st and closer 2nd to 6th.
Especially 5 to 6 will need to be very close for high speed bikes operating at the performance limit.
Bye
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#6 Post by MK » Wed Oct 26, 2016 4:46 am

Double post ...
Bye
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#7 Post by 4cyl h2 » Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:44 am

Anybody know happen to know how the old rd350 6 speed compares to the 5 speed in the r5 for strength?? Or basic reliability Are Rez and banshee pretty much same. R5 gears seem a little bigger

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#8 Post by MK » Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:42 am

I ride RZ's since 1987 for more than 200.000 km and never had a gear failing. Also very rarely heard of that happening first hand (and believe me, I have lots of contacts ...).
From that point of view using “stronger“ gears is not required unless you have 100+ HP cylinders. And even in that case its crank bearings that are the weakest point to take care of.
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#9 Post by DRC » Fri Oct 28, 2016 3:54 pm

Thanks for this. The ratios were very helpful, but Murphy's law strikes again.

After searching for months I managed to get a complete 1985 RZ350 bottom end almost right after I posted this. I'm going to pickup the Banshee as well.

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#10 Post by alex2218 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:55 am

I have a complete banshee transmission in my bike and it is juste IMPOSSIBLE to pull the 6 if your bracket is choosed for fast track.

Example : In 15x38 i can pull the 6 to the limiter at 165 km/h / In 17x38 i can't pull the 5 to the max and 6 is just impossible
I have a cheetah 421, it should easily pull it...

So banshee gearbox is very good if your run a small track because 1, 2, 3 & 4 are longs and with a good spacing, if you want to go on fast race tracks, just use an RZ/RDLC gearbox. Check Micozzi Ingrannagi on facebook, he made us lot of gearbox kit for French riders, specially the RGV/RS 250 ones that are NIGHT & DAY on track use !
Last edited by alex2218 on Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#11 Post by motoholic71 » Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:11 am

See, just like I said, Banshee useless on a fast track with lots of long straights. The best is what I did since you have both gearboxes is to combine the RZ with Banshee input shaft and 1st gear, you geta ever so slightly taller 1st which allows you to gain a small advantage off the line against regular RZs, or if you have deep pockets go for a Nova set and this alone will get you beat bigger cc RZs on a track if u can really ride it like u stole it.
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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#12 Post by MK » Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:51 am

MK wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:42 am I ride RZ's since 1987 for more than 200.000 km and never had a gear failing. Also very rarely heard of that happening first hand (and believe me, I have lots of contacts ...).
I stand corrected as I now had my first heavily pitted transmission in my race bike.
Engine has been in about 10 seasons with 5-8 track days each. Only saw 100% WOT operation with an extremely short 13/47 secondary gearing.
Gears 3 to 6 all had extreme pitting and I purchased a used tranny to exchange with.
Bye
Martin

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#13 Post by yeahhim » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:10 pm

Martin, in your opinion would a hybrid with 80 or more HP have sufficient torque to overcome the Banshee transmission's wider spread gear ratios without sacrificing significant performance ?
The Banshee parts seem much easier to find, newer and less expensive.

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#14 Post by MK » Fri Apr 30, 2021 5:38 pm

How many YPVS trannys do you need? I guess I have half a dozen laying around.

For road use the banshee tranny will be like a 5 plus overdrive. So if you're ib the US and aren't allowed more than 55, it'll be perfect.

If it's a race bike that reaches >200 kph the difference between 5'th and 6'th will be too much. After shifting to 6th rpm will drop below what's needed.
Bye
Martin

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Re: Banshee transmission in track bike

#15 Post by yeahhim » Sat May 01, 2021 6:10 pm

Thanks, perfect.

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