Why is it said that Trinity/Anthena kit runs only on premix?

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JonW · #1 Post by **JonW** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:15 pm

Ive been reading some Trinity/Athena etc threads and other banshee tuning info online and almost everytime people say you need to run bikes with these cyls (Trinity, Anthena and other banshee derived upgrades) on premix. I can only assume the banshee is premix only (tho ive not got one so dont know for sure) and that's why people say that, but how come you cant use the RD/RZ autolube on these cyls... or can you, but it's just people run it like a Banshee cos they dont like trusting the oil pump?

ghezzi · #2 Post by **ghezzi** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:18 am

I can only assume it is due to big-bore motors having a much higher rate of fuel consumption and the oil pump cannot keep up an adequate supply.

Common mistake of 250 upgrades to 350cc, oil pumps have differences.

Can one of you experts chime in with details.

slinger · #3 Post by **slinger** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:19 am

You can run them on pre mix or with the pump it makes no odds at all. Just need your ratio's to be correct with a pump if your using the large cc.

RuZty · #4 Post by **RuZty** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 5:57 am

TSS have an oil pump overdrive gear that meshes with their straight cut primary gear set.

RZ250350OZ · #5 Post by **RZ250350OZ** » Wed Jun 30, 2010 11:27 pm

You can easily fit an RZ clutch side cover onto a Banshee and use the oil pump and pinion the same as you would on an RZ.

Yes indeed we do have an overdrive oil pump pinion, which meshes with our 2.68:1 straight-cut primaries. Again, this you can fit to a big-bore Banshee engine to provide for greater oil flow. See below for details:

A set of primaries USD$275. Overdrive oil pump gear $50.

With the overdriven oil pump, and by dint of shimming the pump, delivery rates can be set to suit the bigger bore/stroked Cub/Cheetah etc. engines.

aaronmvrider · #6 Post by **aaronmvrider** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 3:28 am

what are we terming as large cc

i am using the original oil pump and gears... will it pump enough for 4mm stroker 115mm long rods i am only on (64.25mm) first over bore so not a massive cc jump.... 375 - 380 cc from what i have been told

slinger · #7 Post by **slinger** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 2:54 pm

aaronmvrider wrote:what are we terming as large cc

i am using the original oil pump and gears... will it pump enough for 4mm stroker 115mm long rods i am only on (64.25mm) first over bore so not a massive cc jump.... 375 - 380 cc from what i have been told

Aaron your not quite in the big bore league yet, but it would be wise to measure the flow you have now to be safe.

But I'd say your still safe.

aaronmvrider · #8 Post by **aaronmvrider** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:00 pm

cheers Slinger .... i put clear lines on and all is flowing and sounding good and smelling good... still have to get that throttle cable and sort out this idle issue... hope it not an air leak

JonW · #9 Post by **JonW** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:24 pm

Interesting when thinking about this... Got the thinking about how to measure the oil flow? Do I let it run into a cup for a given amount of time and see how much you have collected? I ask as Id like to do that to check how good my pump is when I get the bike going, I assume flow rate is a good indication of condition?

Also... sorry its 20 questions time LOL... how can we work out what flow we actually need? Im assuming its how fast it drinks the fuel as there is a ratio to be maintained? Im asking as I am exploring my options for my project bike... Cheers!

RZ250350OZ · #10 Post by **RZ250350OZ** » Thu Jul 01, 2010 10:17 pm

JonW wrote:Interesting when thinking about this... Got the thinking about how to measure the oil flow? Do I let it run into a cup for a given amount of time and see how much you have collected? I ask as Id like to do that to check how good my pump is when I get the bike going, I assume flow rate is a good indication of condition?

Also... sorry its 20 questions time LOL... how can we work out what flow we actually need? Im assuming its how fast it drinks the fuel as there is a ratio to be maintained? Im asking as I am exploring my options for my project bike... Cheers!

Firstly I would recommend stripping the oil pump and replacing the two seals inside, as these harden and shrink with age. Here are the Yamaha part numbers (93104-04114 is for RZ350 oil pump piston, whereas 93104-06108 is for the bigger piston of the RD400 oil pump.)

Otherwise we have the two RD250/350LC/RZ250/350 YPVS oil pump seals in stock, $10 for both of them.

(Please click on this link to launch an exploded pic of the oil pump, showing where the oil seals fit and the correct orientation of them: http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RZ350_oil_pump_seals.jpg )

It's important to make sure your oil seals are replaced because these things are getting pretty clapped-out by now, and for the sake of a simple pump strip and pushing in a couple of seals, the pump can be restored to its former efficiency.

The most important seal is the smaller of the two because this is the piston seal ... you don't want leakage past the piston. First thing you will notice is the old seal is a very sloppy fit around the piston, whereas the new one hugs the piston snugly. For the sake of a few bucks, it's a very worthwhile investment because I notice Yamaha keeps bumping up the prices of the new pumps ... last I saw the latest iteration of the pump (1UA-13101-00-00) was selling in the States for around the USD$320 mark. Mind, I just looked on Service Honda's fiche and they were only listing them at a shade over $200 although they did say to call and check because some of the prices need updating ...

Re oil pump flow, Yamaha publishes the following info for the stock RZ350 motor:

Whereas the RD400 oil pump, with its bigger piston, delivers considerably more oil (but the RD400 pump can't be fitted to the RZ350, as the worm drive shaft is of a different worm pitch, and the shaft length is different):

RD400 Oil Pump

Colour code: Sky Blue

Min. stroke: 0.20-0.25mm

Minimum output @ 100 cycles: 0.50cc (Total for both cylinders)

Maximum output @ 100 cycles: 5.53cc (Total for both cylinders)

JonW · #11 Post by **JonW** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:33 am

Cheers for the info, Id be crazy not to renew my seals since ive got it all apart :)

motoholic71 · #12 Post by **motoholic71** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:48 am

Wow I thought YAMAHA didn't sell any internal components for these oil pumps,or at least that was what I red in Haynes manual.
I did know that the piston seal was available from an outside manufacturer,but from Yamaha it's new to me,even surprising to see a part n. available for it!
Since when are the seals available?

RZ250350OZ · #13 Post by **RZ250350OZ** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:02 am

motoholic71 wrote:Wow I thought YAMAHA didn't sell any internal components for these oil pumps,or at least that was what I red in Haynes manual.
I did know that the piston seal was available from an outside manufacturer,but from Yamaha it's new to me,even surprising to see a part n. available for it!
Since when are the seals available?

I think it's just one of those scenarios where there are part numbers on the fiches for 'public' viewing, and there are further levels of detail for dealers, and there are other part #s that are 'need to know' or whatever.

Erk, I sound like a conspiracy theorist!

My best guess is there have always been these part numbers, but they are just not so widely circulated as the usual run-of-the-mill parts lists.
But usually if you rock up to your local Yamaha dealer, they will be able to order these parts in.

It's just so easy to strip down the oil pumps and replace the seals but of course Yamaha would prefer to encourage the belief that the pumps are sealed units, running on some sort of black magic, and a new pump is what you really need. And you need some Yamalube etc etc etc ... can't blame them for trying to make a quid I suppose ....

You can get the two oils seals either from Yamaha, or from here at TSS. Since the seals will fit in a letter, the postage to anywhere in the world will only be $2.50. The two seals are $10, so total is USD$12.50. (This is for:

> RD/RZ250/350 oil pump piston seal, part # 93104-04114

> RD/RZ250/350 Oil pump body seal, part # 93104-14059

You can Paypal us at info@twostrokeshop.com or send us your Paypal email and we'll send a payment request - or use this encrypted credit card payment gateway: https://secure.twostrokeshop.com/order? ... rice=12.50

Here's how to strip the pump and remove the old seals/put in the new:

These are the famed shims, for adjusting pump stroke. Less thickness of shims = longer pump stroke.)

Pull shims off, and then remove pulley grub screw ....

Ease away pulley spring and pulley, then remove the four Philips head screws to split the pump body.

Very simple inside, you can see where the seals go - the small one in the piston housing
and the large one inside the upper pump body.

Hook the oil seals out with a suitable pick ...

Most important: when reassembling, always make sure
the piston body pin is in the upper body slot. The piston
does not spin - it is just pushed up by the two cams on
the piston housing, and returns by compression spring
pressure. This pin travels up and down in this slot.

(Click on this link to launch a larger version of the exploded pic above of the oil pump, showing where the oil seals fit
and the correct orientation for them:
http://www.twostrokeshop.com/RZ350_oil_pump_seals.jpg )

Cheers!
Steve

motoholic71 · #14 Post by **motoholic71** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:08 pm

Hi Steve,you are absolutly right about the conspiracy theory.
A while back I had a pump that wouldn't put out any oil at idle flow ratio,even with a shimm thicker than recommended,exactly because the piston seal was ripped,so the oil seepped outside.
Since I was unable to find the seal,and I was not keen on spending 160â‚¬ on a new pump just for that reason,I machined a groove on the piston edge and fitted an o-ring of the apropriate size(had to left the bad seal out).
The o ring has to be very lightly fitted in order to slide with no effort,but it worked just fine,at least for a while.
Later on I put new pistons,rings,re-bored,etc -in short I did that engines whole top end,so I was not confortable any more with that fixed by my self oil pump,so I just bought a new one.
Too bad that I opened that groove because now I could just buy the seals and have a spare pump.
Oh,well!I neede those 90Âº oil hose fittings for my new carbs,anyway

Anyway thanks for all the info you keep pitching in here,it's wonderfull and I appreciate it very much.
I will contact you soon about the gear and some other stuff too,just gathering finances first.
Cheers

JonW · #15 Post by **JonW** » Fri Jul 02, 2010 8:46 pm

Wow, Steve is the new Haynes! Cheers mate. I'll do mine in few weeks, im slowly starting add some restored bits to my pile new bits for this project... :)