Backfire when kicking over -Zeeltronic

[1601pete]

Hi everyone

I have two bikes with Zeeltronic ignition fitted and both appear to back fire when trying to kick over when starting. They run ok there after. They both have the same map points programmed so I’m thinking the the ignition is too far advanced at very low rpm.

Current map I have which is standard for the IGE cdi (I was told) is

Point 1 - 2000 rpm - 19 deg
Point 2 - 3500 - 29
Point 3 - 9000 - 18
Point 4 - 11000 - 13
Point 5 - 12000 - 10.5

Should I add a map point at 0rpm of around 12 deg

Thanks in advance

Pete

[Ron57]

Hi I've used these when I accidentally wiped my program.

[1601pete]

Yeah, curve 1 is the same as mine

[Motolli]

I have the same issue, since the bike is running with 28mm PWK s. After a while I don’t care any more . I think it is caused by the lost spark which fires the mixture at BDC.
Reducing the ignition advance at low rpms didn’t cure it, so ... leave it as it is

[busa1300]

The factory ignition has the powervalves fully open when first kicking over.
The Zeel has the powervalves fully closed when kicking over....I am guessing that is why....My Zeel powered RZV kicks back at times also.

[Motolli]

Good Point! Worth a try to play with the Pv curve

[1601pete]

Yeah, I’m convinced this must be the cause. Eg the powervalves being closed on start up as opposed to open on the standard setup

Powervalve 1GE map (standard map). So I’m told?

Point 1. 0-6200rpm 0% open
Point 2. 6200-8000rpm 100% open

Maybe I’ll try

Point 1. 0 - 750 100% open
Point 2. 750 - 6200rpm 0% open
Point 3. 6200 - 8000rpm 100% open

Basically once started the powervalves will close

[ChequeredFlagRacing]

Following as I'm looking to get a Zeeltronic unit

[Motolli]

I think the PV is always closed at start, so programming fully open is not easily possible. To have it open , you might switch the pv cables at the servo mechanically. Your program should be vice versa then, starting with 100% And opening will be 0% then.

[1601pete]

Interesting idea.

[MK]

I'm not sure about the Zeeltronic, but the Ignitech has a feature that is as undocumented as confusing.
If you'd use 19 deg @ 2000 as the first point of the ignition curve, then it'd use the base angle (static angle in the Zeel software) if the engine is below 2000 rpm.
And this is usually different from what you wanted, especially when you try lower angles like 5-10 deg for good starting behavior.

The reason is that you don't need to calculate an advance from the rather unstable rpm vs time, but directly fire "when the pick up signal comes". This gives you a stable idling just that you can't really adjust the advance.
The cure is easy: make the first point something like 10 deg @ 300 rpm and then the advance will be the programmed 10 deg.

Having the PV open at cranking helps reducing compression and thus adds to easyer starting.
Both of the desired methods work, I preferred explicitly programming a 100% range at rpms below 1000.
Always keep in mind that the number of points is programmable, too, and nobody said you're only allowed to use 2 points...

BTW: I always have to grin when I see those old Zeel help documents as I supplied those curves to Borut some 15 years ago and also tested his first units for RD350 & 500.

[1601pete]

Hi Martin

Thanks for this. I think I took from your post that you have experience of programming Zeeltronics and that you can get the powervalves to open at very low RpM to aid starting.

Can you give an “example” of a map you have used?

Ta

[MK]

Point 1. 0 - 750 100% open
Point 2. 750 - 6200rpm 0% open
Point 3. 6200 - 8000rpm 100% open

Well this is half way what should work.
Except that you enter 0/100%, 750/100%, 1000/0%, 6xxx/0% and some 10000/100%

Fully open at 8k is definitely crap as it's much too early.

[Motolli]

Well I have tried to get it to stay open when kicking. No way so far. I tried to switch the starting and end angle. No chance, the servo starts to flicker . Programming 100 % to any low rpms won’t change the static behavior when you switch on the ignition. What we want for kicking. This starting angle is adjusted , when the engine idles, but then it’s too late.
I didn’t try more, as the kickback is not a big thing.
Martin, your approach to get a smaller advanced ignition may be a good idea. Also worth a try.

By the way: thank you Martin for your tuning book and the detailed advice to round any edges of the barrels down below. I did it this winter, also worked on the pistons as recommended. Engine feels much better at top end, runs like hell.
The final key for best power output through the band is now the PV curve. Should go on a dyno and have some runs with static PV settings like 0 20 40 60 80 and 100 %. From this I could interpolate a curve for max output. Maybe, as life is not always full throttle.....

[steveho]

I'm not sure about the Zeeltronic, but the Ignitech has a feature that is as undocumented as confusing.
If you'd use 19 deg @ 2000 as the first point of the ignition curve, then it'd use the base angle (static angle in the Zeel software) if the engine is below 2000 rpm.
And this is usually different from what you wanted, especially when you try lower angles like 5-10 deg for good starting behavior.

The reason is that you don't need to calculate an advance from the rather unstable rpm vs time, but directly fire "when the pick up signal comes". This gives you a stable idling just that you can't really adjust the advance.
The cure is easy: make the first point something like 10 deg @ 300 rpm and then the advance will be the programmed 10 deg.

Old topic, but just fitted a Zeel and starting was tough with kickbacks and backfires, and several kicks required.
Followed Martin’s advice and added another point at no. 1 of 10 deg @ 300rpm, and now transformed! Easy starting, no kickbacks, and normally 1st kick.
Thanks Martin.