Alodine, Aircraft Fasteners & Safety Wire

[FlyingBoat]

Hi all,

I’m really new to this forum, so please be kind. Quick rundown that will leave years of details out but get the point I hope. First bike (first vehicle that matter) used ‘75 Yamaha RD350, many parts, DG chambers, Rear Sets, Cafe Seat, Porting I did with hand files meticulously to scribed templates after measuring from cafe racer magazine articles, etc. lots of fun, 2nd was new ‘85 RZ 350 Kenny Signature and finally my 3rd a new 1985 RZ500 from Canada. I rode for 8 or 9 years with plates from my 350 mounted as my import was officially never titled and for off road use only. An injury I was forced to sell all and haven’t ridden anything in 34 years now. Finally I decide I want to get another RZ500, and nearly won another 85 from the Mavros auction but my bid of $12,500 came late apparently due to broadband internet connection issues. After that I signed up here and everywhere else relative and started looking, what I’ve found is that for reasons I won’t go into the prices of my old bike are just too high in general, the auction was a moment I went crazy even bidding that much is unfathomable and based on those prices bikes are for sale but not selling what I see, so I decided to just build a bike from parts. I’m an experienced aircraft mechanic nowadays and the task seems light by comparison of some of the things I am charged with at work on a daily basis. Certainly the parts weigh less and don’t require large hangers and special equipment to move them around like airplanes do. Since I have full access to all the tools at my shop including a Clausing Lathe and Bridgeport mill, and a new DC Tig welder I bought for myself last year I think I’ll be able to handle pretty much anything. Something I’ve been thinking about just after buying a good clean crankcase and a new set of Vito’s Crankshafts is the hardware and the finish... We use all certified AN fasteners at the shop as required by the FAA and safety wire things that shouldn’t come undone. Engine cases made of aluminum (or anything aluminum) are always cleaned to bare metal and acid washed following with a clear or golden color alodine, paint can then be applied or just left as is. The entire engine can be dipped in Alodine it’s a conversion coating so no change in bearing journals or mating surfaces and the gold color looks good in my opinion, it’s an indication that corrosion will be prevented when it’s visible. Fasteners are aircraft quality Because they are Certified as so not just said so, and we have a selection in stock though mostly Imperial for Lycoming and Continental, our supplier can order whatever I might need in metric on the side. My question is are there any particular fasteners that have a tendency to rotate or loosen when they shouldn’t? Those are what I would elect to safety wire. Regular AN fasteners with Cad plating I think sufficient and I’ll add that I’m not a fan of Stainless for the reason I encounter when owners add these we find corrosion induced by dissimilar metals. It can happen with regular steel fasteners too but usually just the steel will rust and the aluminum it’s touching stays clean, however with stainless the aluminum will corrode and that’s usually a lot worse than just swapping out some rusted hardware. Another bonus I know will be really great is the availability of 100 Octane Low Lead Aviation Fuel. We use it in miscellaneous equipment like tow tugs and lawnmowers every now and then, if fuel must be removed from an airplane and disposal then it’s a few gallons free! Anyway I’m a long way from filling my tank that’s a part I don’t quite have yet, along with the rest of the bike. Just the Alodine and fasteners I’m curious has anyone else used aircraft hardware and metal cleaning finishing chemical?

Thanks,
Robert

[Jeff B]

Never heard of Alodine. The only safety wiring I see is the stuff required by race tracks. I'm sure aircraft fasteners have much stiffer quality control. Aside from that are they any different?

So, what's your plan for the bike? YZR replica, stock, or unique custom?

[busa1300]

I hate to say it....but building a RZ/RD/RZV 500R piece by piece, will be way more than the bike you missed out on in that auction.
Look to Japanese auctions for parts...and an aluminum frame.
Many ways a V4 500 can be built with newer suspension from later model bikes.

Never heard of the aluminum coating, and safety wire is really not needed on any engine parts....maybe exhaust bolts/caliper bolts/front and rear wheel nuts/oil and water drains and caps/brake lines.....

if using AV gas you might want to get a Zeel ignition, as the higher octane burns a little slower which is like retarding the timing.

[tacky1]

I have to agree with Busa on this for sure, Ive built quite a few of these over the years and its the small impossible parts to find that will completely put a halt to the project, All the little brackets these bikes have, weird engine parts, Water pumps, clutch covers, The plastic water pipe on the lower cylinders, The tranny oil pump, these are really hard to find, The top cylinders, another gem... I have buily my last 2 out of boxes, even with all the parts in boxes I have stashed over the years, My RZV took almost 2 years, just trying to find the right parts...... And I use Japan auctions, Facebook, you name it.
As for safety wiring, Nothing really gets loose on them, They're are a pretty solid bike, Years ago I used one as a beater and clocked over 50k on it, It got thrashed, crashed, abused, shiity cheap two stroke oil, shit gas and it never once failed me, It never got one ounce of love, And the damn thing was still running great when I sold it and decided to emigrate for good....

[FlyingBoat]

No one has ever heard of Alodine? Really? Well now you have... http://www.eaa1000.av.org/technicl/corr ... lodine.htm

I’m already into it, several small bits you mentioned are on the way so...

Have good case, like the day it left Mr Yamaha’s factory
Trans Gear sets, oil pump, side plate cover - check
Vito’s crank set - check
Primaries anti backlash - check
Case plug (end of counterbalance) - check
Counterbalance - check
Oil gally windage - check
Thermostat housing - check
Coolant tube - check
Oil Tank Cap Cover - check
Foot Rest Hangers L&R w controls - check
Seat Bracket - check
Original NOS Yamaha Mirrors L&R - check
NOS Signal Indicators - check

That’s the inventory so far, and yes a loooong way to go but it’s a good start and I’m patient. Sure it’ll take time to find everything but at least it gives me something to do, and the piece of mind every part was inspected visually through photos so no surprises in the end. I’ve already seen some folks that got all whole and took them down to find a complete disaster, and the running is just overpriced what’s on market that I see. It’s really time that I’m trading now more than anything I think, and the labor putting it all together as the various bits accumulate. I did buy new once so the parts aren’t unfamiliar and looking at them it’s all coming back and remembering is an experience I enjoy, just having that case sitting on my bench I feel a lot closer to the bike I had 34 years ago.

[FlyingBoat]

An observation, Auctions are a media event and as such they need actors, which the lots fill for that purpose, then the repeat lots that resurface at the next auction beg the question why, was the previous year’s closing artificial? Then owners that may or may not wish to sell become enthralled with the idea they have something worth more than they had thought and list them with prices along the lines of the highest recorded offerings, but they aren’t moving, the market is standing still, aside from the media event auction where the action seems to happen without fail. Curious that... so it’s a situation that makes for buying a reasonably clean example somewhat challenging, then add import (to US) fees with proxy and customs another roughly 3.5K and it’s a big question without the ability to physically inspect in person what may actually arrive for those premium prices. I think the Forums, Model kits, and anything else help contribute to the publicity for these bikes too, that were pretty much unknown in the US, and for the large part still are, as they were never legally imported here. So every part has a higher shipping cost, that’s something I’ll have to absorb no getting around logistics, but the high prices of completed I’m not interested I just don’t see it when that close to a real TZ/TZR500 why would you not just buy the actual race bike instead.

[silverstrom]

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[busa1300]

If you have all the time in the world, then I guess that is one way you could spend it.
If money is not an issue and you prefer to buy it piece by piece, that is one way you can spend it.
I hope it works out for you the way you plan.
After building a number of bikes throughout the past 30 years....starting with at least a partially complete chassis or engine, is the only way to see the project to the end.
I did have some display engines as decoration in my family room that started as just parts though.

I just don’t see it when that close to a real TZ/TZR500 why would you not just buy the actual race bike instead.

I wish I could find a real TZ500 for even $20,000....

This one is going for quite a bit more....
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/j606980985



Or a RGB500....
https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/j495754919

[FlyingBoat]

Added a set of carburetors today, thanks for all the support and encouragement you guys are just wonderful

[FlyingBoat]

Try sourcing the parts to build an antique seaplane 1947 everything obsolete and no stock anywhere, I did that the last ten years and now have all the bits for my Republic RC-3 Seabee and the credit earned plus the 36 months working for an FAA approved FBO and eligible to take the barrage of tests to complete my Airframe & Powerplant certification. A buddy that worked with us had his and obtained security clearance to work at Space-X, probably not going that route I like it here but just saying this isn’t going to be among the more difficult things I’ve done rather it will be like taking a walk in the park. No heavy lifting or pushing airplanes across a field it’s a motorcycle and light as a feather.

Easy Peasy! And like I said I purchased new, so replacing what I had prior. How is that affecting any parts market? I should just let it be absorbed and forget I got burned? I don’t think so. Building one bike not collecting in infinity and sellers offering me discounts on parts encouraging me to buy, many what have been discarded like wheels, forks, swingarm, brakes, foot hangers and control etc, because people want new equipment better and better, aside the clutch cover that gets cut for dry clutches what parts appreciation when a wheel is $95? How is a stock bike with 20,000 miles worth $20,000 when if you break it down the parts can’t bring close to that amount? Doesn’t matter I’ve worked it out every way all the math from rate of inflation at 3.7% in 1985 to current 1.73% 2019, $4999 Canadian to US 34 years later not adding any depreciation in today’s US dollars is $9100, anything after that is appreciation and if it’s double then what’s the driver? Is it an advertisement or an actual sale? And so on, anyway I have a way to own a really nice clean example again and through patience and careful selection and assembling it’s for me at least easier than paying off a three year loan for something that’s well worn in despite a spit shine and some glossy adverts. Not to mention the smaller vendors that are struggling, I’m the kind of guy that’s going to support them, people like Stuart Toomey who lost money building pipes and won’t go back into production with anything RZ500 now because obviously not enough demand, and what about Jolly Moto? Where’s the rationale that I’m having any effect other than to support an entirely niche market? I kind of get it though, I can read through the lines and guess the idea of me buying that one part just once is going to bother the guys who haven’t stacked their piles high enough yet. No sympathy that I suffered a broken leg , nearly amputated and forced to sell then 34 years later it’s a problem if I don’t follow the suggested course to just hand over really stupid money for a used motorcycle, pure genius that must be, or fat and lazy depending how you look at it.

[silverstrom]

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[FlyingBoat]

I don’t see the actual demand in terms of recorded sales, at least within the last several months. I see many listings on eBay UK and Yahoo Japan ending unsold and relished with many watchers but nobody taking the bait. I see an RZ 500 from Mecum last year sold 28K and the exact same bike again is reappearing as a new lot this year, same actor different stage so...

It’s no different than VW Bus selling for Millions at some highly publicized auction as entertainment value then the reality is the vehicles aren’t really valued by the trades taking place outside of televised auctions anywhere close, and some people trying to sell a non running VW Bug project that needs towed away for 10K. Well I just bought a 66 Bug running and driving every day for $1500 and people asking me to sell everywhere I go but nobody offering any real money they want it for under 1k as if, so there you go that’s what I see. Besides me who else is a new interest in RZ500? Most of my friends from back in the day are dead or married and have no interest in motorcycles anymore. I even looked up an old friend who had TZ125 once and I gave him my RD350 parts frame, wheels and bottom ends around late 90s couldn’t sell it even for a few hundred. He doesn’t have them and no interest anymore so that’s my take it must be young guys reading old magazines or something.

[rz500guytexas]

I recently sold my street RZ that was stunning, mechanically perfect, and ran perfect. Had all of Rick's goodies so better than new in my opinion. Mine sold for $15,600 with buyer paying fees. I hoped for more but purchased for $6K. A lot of work went in it so i made no money on it. It now sits as tribute to days gone past. My reason for selling was what if I crashed it, what if a major engine component failed, most people had no idea what it was and I was tired of explaining, ride was a little harsh, and biggest concern was a prostrate scare that I contributed to the rear pipes cooking my nuts. Bike was good for an hour ride anything above 50 degrees. I enjoyed it for many many years and had fun putting it together. I agree with others on the site that better to start with a good base. If you want to start from scratch best wishes. I do not have enough time left in my life to do another one. Thus my TZ 250, totally stripped in 3 hours. The RZ is one of the most over engineered two strokes and is an anchor. I bet I have as much expense in parts to shave weight on track bike compared to a full stock starter bike. I enjoy using my track bike but it is a tool. A very very reliable tool but give me a BMW RR and you have an awesome all around bike. When it comes time to sell the track bike will people might say I am crazy at $20K. Maybe but it was many years of progress, experimentation, and work to make it competitive in a push button four stroke world. The bikes are getting rarer, so are the people that want them, and same with the people that actually know how properly work on them. There were two recently auctioned at 11K for a ratty RZ500 and an RZV for $13K. I can always keep an ear out.

[FlyingBoat]

And Mavros, that was I would guess not really a mass media event like Mecum, and known by forum here and elsewhere so if demand so great why the 85 RZ500 I was bidding even the announcer said was down to two Internet bidders after 11k myself and one other. Where was everyone else? I can see it the values what selling prices not pie in the sky hopes and dreams that aren’t associated with reality as range between $8k to $12k, plus accessories like expansion chambers or shipping costs. Seems everyone interested already has one or maybe more 2 or 3 in parts or project so that’s part of it. Lots of pics of small groupings these bikes I’ve noticed. Mavros had 3. Never heard of the guy and read a bit after the auction seems he was part owner in Sin City in NYC, an establishment that has a reputation for drugs gangs and crime, who knows maybe some bikes are parking for money laundering then the prices aren’t as important, it’s a thing in many cities with real estate from foreign investors hiding drug and human trafficking profits through HSBC that would purchase properties because paper trail less than many other kinds of investments, Congress was investigating couple years back and basically let HSBC and their shady clients off Scott free because the problem turned out to be so rampant that it was deemed as a systemic risk to economies if the guilty were actually pulled out of the system, depressed values in real estate males crime ok these days I guess. So yeah I’m kinds glad I didn’t win a Mavros bike I wouldn’t want the history of it anything to do with Sin City directly or indirectly. I work for a living and make an honest buck I don’t need to chase after the illusions after seeing through the veils.

[rz500guytexas]

Are you related to RC45. Paul if you read this you know I am messing with ya.