Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

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Smoker
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#16 Post by Smoker » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:03 pm

Extremely difficult subject to approach, with no simple answers.

I very much appreciate opinions from those outside the US.

The American idea of freedom has taken a very scary turn.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#17 Post by silverstrom » Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:32 pm

We have gun control here. It doesn't help deter crime. Laws only apply to honest law abiding citizens.

Guns and access to them aren't the problem. People are the problem.

Blaming guns for crime and terrorism is like blaming the sun if you get a sunburn.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#18 Post by adr1an » Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:37 pm

I know that politics are not normally a part of this forum for obvious reasons, but I'd like to add to the comments.

Professing a right to buy and own a gun is one thing. Let's acknowledge that both the constitution and the bible (fact or fiction) for that matter were written a long time ago and circumstances have changed. The world is different, better for the most part.

The right to life is paramount above all other.

If I want to drive a car or motorcycle on the road, I have to get a licence, take lessons, identify myself as a learner, take a test, drive with identification on my vehicle for a probationary period before I can even graduate to a larger bike. Most seasoned riders would see some sense in this. An 18 year old on a superbike is not a good mix.
So for the life of me and more importantly everyone in our global community, what's the big issue with a bit more due diligence before you get hold of a gun? Why can you simply sell a second hand gun without any checks in some states? Something does not make sense. I've come across lots of people whose driving skills suggest they should not have a licence, much less own a gun.
I grew up in a country where terrorism was part of life (Northern Ireland in the 60's and 70's). It seemed just normal at the time, which it was, looking back it gives you a distinctly different view. Arming everyone would have been a complete disaster.

Sure, the gun ownership thing in the US has a very different background, but peoples right to life far outweighs anyones perceived 'right' to own a weapon. Getting rid of the weapons is not practical in my view, but would a few more checks really hurt and so what if you could only keep your automatic weapon at a registered gun club, where you could use it as much as you like. Much like owning a YZR500, which you can only use at the track.

It's good for all of us as a global forum to voice our opinions in a respectful way as we are doing. Thanks guys for that.

It's at times like these we all (metaphorically or not) look at the sunrise, breath in the air before starting our RZ's and think life is good and we are so fortunate. Some are not so fortunate and we surely must sometimes give a little.
My deepest thoughts go out to all of those families.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#19 Post by BRIAN TURFREY » Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:41 pm

Well said.... adr1an.... well said. This topic is a "No Win" for everyone. Some people think there "Rights" are more important than anything :smt017 No Win.... just sad. This isn't the first time this has happened with shootings.... and it sadly won't be the last? just sad... There is no answer to the problem.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#20 Post by Smoker » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:09 am

It should be mentioned that many Americans (and non-Americans) don't feel the same way about this shooting as other mass shootings.

There are many that are saying this incident is a good thing because the victims have different beliefs and activities, thus deserving this fate.

The people I've heard and read about got this belief through their religion.

These attitudes are not going to change for a long time, if ever. I guess I should be happy that I'm still alive to build and ride bikes. I'm just not ready to give up on humanity.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#21 Post by WVWRZ500N » Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:53 am

@ Adrian...

Being from AU you don't completely appreciate the laws we living in the US already understand. So, let me help you:

A person wanting to purchase any new firearm from a dealer, (Federal Firearm Licensed - FFL), has for decades had to complete an 4 page background check form. The dealer then calls in or logs into the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) and gives them the person's personal identification information and then waits. Sometimes the wait is a few minutes sometimes a few days. If a person has a criminal past (NON-Felony) their purchase may be delayed or denied depending on their actual crime. Upon passing the background check the purchase in completed and the person owns the firearm. This is the Federal requirements. Depending on the state and or city the person lives in there may be an additional state or local requirement to this background as well.

Now a person wanting to purchase a firearm from an individual get's a little more complicated (at least it can be for law abiding citizens). A person can purchase/transfer a long gun or pistol within their own state without a background check. This is called a person-to-person sale. A person can not sell a pistol across state lines without sending it to an FFL for a Federal ATF background check just like the dealer sale above. So I can't drive 20-minutes across state lines from Missouri to Kansas and purchase a pistol from an individual. That person-to-person transfer must take place with a background check.

Now, one can hypothesize all they want about what if this and what if that but the fact is there are over 2500 current gun laws both federal and state governing the purchase, carry, action, etc of guns in our country. People like myself and 98% of the gun owners in the US abide to these laws and go out of their way too. This is one reason why it is infuriating that our government tries to blame guns for crazy people's choices. I for one am not ready for us as a society to begin mind reading everyone's minds to determine if they are good enough to do this or that or good enough to own this or that. That's a fascist society that no one truly benefits from. This is why the background checks are in place already. And just because someone has been questioned by the government does not mean they are on some watchlist or a target of a background check, again fascistic.

Like I stated in my very first comment, this is a heart problem stemming from an ideology and world view that does not value human life.

Per your comment about the constitution and the bible. The heart of man has not changed. Murder is still just as wrong today as when Moses brought the tablets of stone down off Mt. Sinai some 3600 years ago. Same goes for adultery, lying, stealing and the rest. Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun and he was exactly right. The heart of man is exceedingly wicked left to it's own devices and unchecked. Just look at the ISIS and Syrian activities going on now. The constitution as a governing document still stands that same test of time because it too was written concerning the heart of man. The very 2nd ammendment was established to safeguard against wicked men taking over.

There is no clear cut solution, other than stamping out evil where it is found, safeguarding our fellow man when they are endangered or threatened and tightening up the securities we already have in place.
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#22 Post by BRIAN TURFREY » Wed Jun 15, 2016 12:55 pm

:smt017 Wow,,, Bill, what a bunch of "FUCKING bullshit" the law is then... as you just stated about how to get guns?

I just watched the news this morning while having breakfast,

The "GUN DEALER" that sold the dude guns in this mess was asked, "did he have any idea that the Gunman was being watch by the FBI etc " The Dealers reply was he passed all background checks needed .

The gunman even went to a gun dealer store to "BUY" his guns?

Really Bill,,,, so i ask you, How did your "FUCKED UP" USA gun laws work for you this time?

I have lived in AU and NZ.. Seen how people live and "Bullshit.... like, IT's MY right to.... is not real high on peoples list".


They are more interested in living life to the best they can down there. But here in the good old USA, it's all about , "MY FUCKING RIGHTS" ha Bill? :smt017 :smt017 :smt017 :smt017

Your right Bill, i am speaking out of turn here? for Adrian...

Bill said,

" Being from AU you don't completely appreciate the laws we living in the US already understand"

Adrian, I don't understand how a dude can go to a gun store, pass all background checks and buy guns and do what he did in this case? Law clearly works great ha?

Yep Bill, again, you right.... Adrian don't understand..... and Brian Turfrey sure as fuck don't understand? :smt017 :smt017 :smt017

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#23 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:33 pm

I posted yesterday apparently it did not post.... and that is probably a good thing because you try to make sense of these mass killings, but can't win either nobody seems to care they don't truly care. Tragic event and tragic situation and it is going to happen again and it's going to get worse.
This is not the America I grew up in, nor the society. I have guns , because of the culture in America we will always have them but my belief there" has to be better gun control". To help stop just some of these awful events, just save some "innocent" lives.
It does not get any more black and white as to what is right and what is wrong and Good and Evil as the statement above the fact that a man can go into a gun store with intent & history and simply buy high grade killing tools and do what he did it's just...wrong. There is no debate.

And in my opinion it is a completely understandable position from an individual whom chooses to not support guns & the culture etc. I understand where they're coming from it is a nice thought. Unfortunatley its not reality..but as a whole there good people. And thats what matters to me. I fear my fellow gun owners far more than anything else and that makes for a pretty fucking sad situation.
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#24 Post by WVWRZ500N » Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:12 pm

BRIAN TURFREY wrote::smt017 Wow,,, Bill, what a bunch of "FUCKING bullshit" the law is then... as you just stated about how to get guns?

I just watched the news this morning while having breakfast,

The "GUN DEALER" that sold the dude guns in this mess was asked, "did he have any idea that the Gunman was being watch by the FBI etc " The Dealers reply was he passed all background checks needed .

The gunman even went to a gun dealer store to "BUY" his guns?

Really Bill,,,, so i ask you, How did your "FUCKED UP" USA gun laws work for you this time?

I have lived in AU and NZ.. Seen how people live and "Bullshit.... like, IT's MY right to.... is not real high on peoples list".


They are more interested in living life to the best they can down there. But here in the good old USA, it's all about , "MY FUCKING RIGHTS" ha Bill? :smt017 :smt017 :smt017 :smt017

Your right Bill, i am speaking out of turn here? for Adrian...

Bill said,

" Being from AU you don't completely appreciate the laws we living in the US already understand"

Adrian, I don't understand how a dude can go to a gun store, pass all background checks and buy guns and do what he did in this case? Law clearly works great ha?

Yep Bill, again, you right.... Adrian don't understand..... and Brian Turfrey sure as fuck don't understand? :smt017 :smt017 :smt017

WOW Brian I didn't realize you were so offendable!

And as a matter of fact is is my *(&^$*%&*^ rights, and yours and ever other citizen of this great country. Just because you don't agree to exercise those right like I do does not change the fact that we all have them.

See the UK, NZ and AU already disarmed their citizens. Do some research and you'll find that violent crimes vent up across the board, maybe not with firearms but all other areas increase exponentially. Heck, in certain states in AU it's illegal for you to physically defend yourself on your own property!

Second, the person was questioned by the FBI. He wasn't put on a watch list, a NO fly list. He's no more watched than you or I. He worked for a security company that was govern by our own government! Before he ever walked in the store to buy the gun he had multiple background checks just to get his job. The law worked in all cases with this individual. He was 100% within his rights to purchase a firearm. Stop buying into everything the so called media is spinning.

Now like I said unless we as a society are willing to start mind reading and profiling every person that walks into a gun store then there is nothing else that will be capable of catching when someone is about to go waco and shoot up someplace. I for one would never agree to it in a voting situation cuz who knows when I might get profiled next.
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#25 Post by adr1an » Wed Jun 15, 2016 6:44 pm

Hi Bill,
I could go into detail about violent crime stats in the AU or the UK, but I see no point. Your information is completely incorrect. Completely.
Life should not be seen in polarizing black and white, with me or against me eyes. That perspective has long been the source of continued conflict. Nor does religion hold the moral high ground which many think it is the bastion of. It's just tribalism and belief. Trouble is you can't argue with belief.

You miss the point entirely about my understanding or misunderstanding of US law. That's not the point. The point is that this is not the first, nor the last time this sort of thing will happen as Brian states, so what do YOU do to limit or diminish the chances of it happening again? It's easy to criticize, much more difficult to find a solution. Just sit any of us in front of the TV when a big game is on (Ha, Ha).

In a social democracy like the ones most of us are lucky to live in, we all have the opportunity no matter how small to make a difference, to make things better, to make things change for the good. So despite what romantic notion you may have about the heart of man, I'm afraid this is one issue that will only be solved by the head.

To do nothing repeatedly and resist reasonable change is not only stupid, but insane...........

Take care.

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#26 Post by WVWRZ500N » Wed Jun 15, 2016 7:51 pm

adr1an wrote:Hi Bill,
I could go into detail about violent crime stats in the AU or the UK, but I see no point. Your information is completely incorrect. Completely.
Life should not be seen in polarizing black and white, with me or against me eyes. That perspective has long been the source of continued conflict. Nor does religion hold the moral high ground which many think it is the bastion of. It's just tribalism and belief. Trouble is you can't argue with belief.

You miss the point entirely about my understanding or misunderstanding of US law. That's not the point. The point is that this is not the first, nor the last time this sort of thing will happen as Brian states, so what do YOU do to limit or diminish the chances of it happening again? It's easy to criticize, much more difficult to find a solution. Just sit any of us in front of the TV when a big game is on (Ha, Ha).

In a social democracy like the ones most of us are lucky to live in, we all have the opportunity no matter how small to make a difference, to make things better, to make things change for the good. So despite what romantic notion you may have about the heart of man, I'm afraid this is one issue that will only be solved by the head.

To do nothing repeatedly and resist reasonable change is not only stupid, but insane...........

Take care.
Adrian,

Curious that you describe actions as beliefs and tribalism. If a person believes they should be able to kill you I think you would argue with them even though it is just their belief. Fact is our actions depict our true heart. I can argue with a person’s actions and psychology tells us that those actions stem from a person’s deep seated beliefs and world view. World view can be changed but it takes time.

Per your comments concerning me being incorrect about UK and AU statistics post pan on firearms, please do enlighten me. Every article I read from the Australian Bureau of Statistics and U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation both tell a much different story of violent crime increasing following bans.

I’ll say I love my country but not those in charge of it. I’m more than confident that the agendas being perpetrated by those in power, not only in the US but all over the world, are not benevolent in nature. In fact one only needs to look at the civilian death toll in the Irac and Afgan conflicts to know this. Therefore, I do not consider the system(s) that are place one of complete democratic correctness. My vote and countless others may or may not even make a difference anymore given the nature of the beast.

My point to even getting involved with this conversation is to say I refuse to be dismissed, ostracized or even punished for a few crazed madmen who are hell bent on causing as much devastation as they can. There is no clear solution. WWIII would break out in this country if the government decided to round up the guns and they know it, and quite frankly that’s why the founders put the amendment in in the first place.

I do like a spirited debate and appreciate all of your comments. We agree there is a terrible problem with killings, we didn’t discuss it but we could possible agree it’s an Islamic terroristic problem, and we agree there should be something done someway somehow to curb the violence if possible. And that is were we may part ways as what you may deem appropriate to help curb it I may think is far reaching. But we agree very much on life, love, happiness, motorcycles and the joys of family. Let’s not let this little debate tear that away.
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#27 Post by Smoker » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:03 pm

Hope this link works.

Dude shows how easy it is to conceal the massive killing power of the Orlando shooter.

Those rifle clips are 30 rounds each.

http://m.worldstarhiphop.com/android/vi ... o2FX1QIFUV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#28 Post by Smoker » Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:19 pm

Survivor stories:

http://m.worldstarhiphop.com/android/vi ... 32cs0IbD5I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://m.worldstarhiphop.com/android/vi ... 2KfSFlijjG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://m.worldstarhiphop.com/android/vi ... h4I5E5GtT7" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#29 Post by WVWRZ500N » Wed Jun 15, 2016 9:18 pm

Smoker wrote:Hope this link works.

Dude shows how easy it is to conceal the massive killing power of the Orlando shooter.

Those rifle clips are 30 rounds each.

http://m.worldstarhiphop.com/android/vi ... o2FX1QIFUV" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Only problem is he wasn't carrying an AR-15.
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Re: Florida shooting. Do not kick me to the curb.

#30 Post by Bengt Weil » Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:15 pm

Correct - it was not an AR-15, but a Sig Sauer MCX...
Sig Sauer “developed the MCX rifle for America’s special forces. Their goal: a firearm that’s as quiet as an MP5, as deadly as an AK-47, and more modular than anything ever designed.” In a review for Gun Digest, Drew Warden wrote that the MCX “was built to be a compact and lightweight, close-quarters battle (CQB) suppressed rifle.”

Neither gun belongs on the street. If you're a hunter and think you need an AR-15 or MCX, you should take up another sport. If you can't defend your home and family with a .38 revolver or .45 automatic, you need to spend some time at a shooting range taking lessons on how to safely use a civilian firearm.

It isn't about taking guns away from American citizens, it's about using common sense what is offered to the public and what requirements it takes to own a civilian gun. People who fear having their guns taken away are only justified if they own illegal guns and/or high capacity clips/magazines, which are a far cry from hunting, target shooting or even self defense guns.

I personally have no need for a weapon that fires 45 rounds a minute, nor should my neighbor or co-worker, I hope... And yes, I do believe that as an American citizen, I should not be allowed to purchase certain types of weapons and I can live with that as well as accept it, especially if it will keep innocent school childrem from being murdered in cold blood. It's too bad that many American citizens feel otherwise and their rights seem to trump the lives of others.

My heart goes out to the surviving families/relatives/friends of all those who have senselessly lost their lives to a person with mental health issues or felt the need to make a statement and happened to be able to purchase (or get their hands on) a weapon designed for mass killing.

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