"TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

Got a customizing or restoration project? Post your progress pictures and updates here

Moderator: rztom

Message
Author
JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#91 Post by JungleJustice » Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:20 pm

Thanks guys. Yeah, I tried that (the spacing out of the rotor), but there's just not enough room to move outward! (only about 3-4mm per side with the wheel at center and then the rotors hit hardware and other protrusions on the inside of the forks!) Even with the rotors spaced out SO far that they touch the forks, the fat inner profile of the R1 caliper makes contact with the spokes!

Somehow the rear profile of the Ducati (spoke-specific calipers) must be extra slim to fit this wheel...? I have a set of their standard 4-pot Brembos here (from my CBX / Ducati hybrid project and a fairly universal caliper for Ducati from the 748 / 916 / 996 / 998 onwards) and even that doesn't fit! Its a pretty slim bloody caliper already!

I'll have to see about getting a set of Sport 1000 / Paul Smart / GT1000 calipers to test-fit! Back to the "just get the whole front-end perhaps" musings... Just the forks won't be enough I don't think - even if they fit the Yamaha triples. The whole Duc fork to fork spacing must be wider, or the Duc forks are a smaller diameter down there and / or the Duc wire-wheel calipers are super slim at the rear.
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#92 Post by JungleJustice » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:07 pm

Found it! Bloody Duc wire-wheel calipers are only a 2-piston (two pistons on the outside - floating caliper) design like an older squeeze-bridge caliper! Shit... Guys on the forums talk about shaving the rear of the 4-pot Duc / Brembo housings to make them fit... Scary.

There are 400-500 dollar spacer kits available, but even then, the reality is that the Yamaha forks and triples that I have now (fork shape, diameter, fork spacing, other hardware and protrusions), simply do not allow the room to space these rotors out that far without inner fork contact with the rotor...

Image

Image
Anything with an engine in it...

RC45
- - - - -
- - - - -
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:18 am
Location: Houston, Texas.

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#93 Post by RC45 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:49 pm

What forks are you running? I ended up with about 5.9" rotor spacing (measured from outside face to outside face) for my Brembo 40mm 4 pistons Gold Calipers to clear the spokes. This was achieved using standard Yamaha 5mm offset rotors and a 5mm spacer.

I am using a ZX7R front end (uses the same 25mm axle as the Paul Smart wheel), the ZX7R forks are a little wider than the R6 and OW01 I have to compare to. These 2 Yamaha forks seem to have about a 6.2" inside spacing.

$500 for caliper hangers? If they are custom machined I can see that being the case - an 'off the shelf' set would probably more in the $300 range, but I doubt there will be an 'off the shelf' set that will work.

Rotor spacers would be maybe $40. Custom rotor carries would be in the $700 range - but the same effect can be had with spacers.
CBR1000RR SP2 HRC WSBK
TZ500V/OW53 Track bike
YZR500 OW81 Clone
OW69 Daytona 200 Replica - 784cc Monster
NS400 Track Bike
RS250R NF5
TZ250T 2KM
TZ250B 3YL
TZR250 3MA Track Bike
427ci C5 Z07

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#94 Post by JungleJustice » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:24 pm

Well, for some of the Duc guys its an all bolt-on solution, or nothing - and the vendors charge accordingly... FYI - the Yamaha hub OD (rotor ID - where the rotor beds to the wheel) and that of the Duc are exactly the same - 63.89mm. The bolt patterns for the rotors and the wheels are also identical - it's just the Duc rotor that appears to have about 3-4mm more off-set to start with over the EBC rotors that I have that are ALMOST flat (center) to the center of the disc...

Here are some pictures of the Duc kit! $400+ bucks (without calipers I might add...) Crazy - https://store.bevelheaven.com/new-arriv ... pers-sale/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image

Image

Anyway, what I have been running is the '93-'98 YZF forks with EBC floating rotors and R1 calipers on the 3-spoke wheel.

For testing, what I have tried so far is to keep the Yamaha forks, bolt a set of the stock 998 front rotors up to the Paul Smart wheel and try to fit the wheel - alternating between the R1 calipers and the 4-pot 998 Brembos. With 8mm offset behind the rotors, it gets the rotors as close to the forks as one can perhaps safely go however, the rear of the R1 calipers still make contact with the spokes.

AND - an additional issue - that much spacing pushes the inside of the rotor right off of the centering hub of the wheel. Anything more than 4-5mm is out. Even 5mm is too much.

I do stand corrected on a portion of my previous post though; with only 4-5mm of offset behind the 998 rotors on the spoke wheel, I CAN get the 4-piston gold Brembos from the 998 to fit without hitting the spokes it would seem. At "only" 4mm of spacing, the rotor stays "fairly safely" centered to the wire wheel hub and clear of the inner fork areas, but MAN - the rear of that caliper is SO close to the spokes! I'm worried about spoke deflection under load still hitting...?

Even if it works, I'll still need custom mounts / adapters to bolt the Brembo calipers to the YZF forks though and the custom axle to fit the Duc wire wheel to the Yamaha forks (and then of course the hub / axle custom spacers on both sides of the rim.) Seems like a longer road than perhaps going with the Sport Classic forks and hardware to just bolt it all together?

Here's a guy who appears to have made his own Brembo caliper mounts / brackets / adapters to fit the gold 998 calipers to the Sport Classic forks...

Image
Anything with an engine in it...

RC45
- - - - -
- - - - -
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:18 am
Location: Houston, Texas.

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#95 Post by RC45 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:33 pm

My 4 axis CNC mill arrives next week - expect 2 weeks to setup then about 2 to 3 weeks of evening tinkering to get the process down and I will begin making my own custom bits.

If it does not prove to be too time consuming I may get into the "custom parts for YZR & NS replica" manufacturing game.

The idea would be to help folks such as yourself out the extreme custom pitfalls we put ourselves in :)
CBR1000RR SP2 HRC WSBK
TZ500V/OW53 Track bike
YZR500 OW81 Clone
OW69 Daytona 200 Replica - 784cc Monster
NS400 Track Bike
RS250R NF5
TZ250T 2KM
TZ250B 3YL
TZR250 3MA Track Bike
427ci C5 Z07

gpaddict
Posts: 341
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:30 pm
Location: wisconsin
Contact:

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#96 Post by gpaddict » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:33 am

You suck! ............ Where can I place my order please :grin:

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#97 Post by JungleJustice » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:15 am

Ah, that's great news Paul.

I'll be down visiting my brother again soon (he's just down the street from you), so we really should try and get together this time... I'd love to see the toys and talk some more.
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#98 Post by JungleJustice » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:00 pm

So, short of a tank, frame and engine I have damn-near purchased two entire Ducatis now, but I am still no closer to fitting these bloody wheels to the RZV...

I can figure out the front, I think, but at the rear the picture is actually not that great. The Ducati sprocket (with the wheel at the center of the swing-arm), is off-set WAY to the left! I'm not sure that the hub/carrier can necessarily be turned down per say. The sprocket hub has these 5 pegs that are seemingly pressed or screwed into the sprocket carrier and they fit inside the wheel hub / cush-drives... I could perhaps have a custom billet carrier made, but that may still not gain me the offset (right) of the sprocket that I need!

I don't know how much chain off-set / sprocket-to-sprocket misalignment would be acceptable...? I'll have to find a way backwards perhaps - measure swing-arm opening position - relative to the frame, measure front sprocket off-set relative to the chain opening in the swing-arm, measure that relative off-set /alignment to the rear sprocket and go from there...

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by JungleJustice on Sat Oct 19, 2013 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#99 Post by JungleJustice » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:31 pm

Yep, those studs appear to be screwed in, so there's no turning that area behind the sprocket down without loosing crucial strength to the mounting holes for those studs!

Image

Image

Image

Image
Anything with an engine in it...

RC45
- - - - -
- - - - -
Posts: 1713
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 5:18 am
Location: Houston, Texas.

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#100 Post by RC45 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 1:25 am

Moenie worry nie swear... you will be amazed at how little sprocket carier is needed to mount the sprocket.

As jy dar ann dink, all wat jy nodig het is a bearing om die sprocket te align.

The 'sprocket carrier, could even be as minimal as studs bolted through the sprocket it self or just a sliver of alloy to carry a bearing.

Image

I am not going to cut down the Paul Smart carrier, I am going to machine a new one.
CBR1000RR SP2 HRC WSBK
TZ500V/OW53 Track bike
YZR500 OW81 Clone
OW69 Daytona 200 Replica - 784cc Monster
NS400 Track Bike
RS250R NF5
TZ250T 2KM
TZ250B 3YL
TZR250 3MA Track Bike
427ci C5 Z07

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#101 Post by JungleJustice » Mon Nov 11, 2013 3:37 am

Okay, got the wheel-fitment figured out. Had to buy a bunch of Duc parts (that I am just going to have to sell again), but that's okay - now I know where I am on this... The GT1000 forks are shorter than the SBK (748 / 916 / 996 / 998) style forks that I have on the CBX (and those are ALREADY shorter than the bloody inverted Yamaha forks that I have on the RZV now), so I'll just stick with the Yamaha forks that are already running on the RZV!

To fit the wheels; basically - for the front, I'm just having a machine shop sleeve up the center of the Yamaha axle that I have been running with the YZF forks, so that the axle fits the ID in the Paul Smart wheel-bearings! Sleeve, heat them up, squeeze them on and cool! Done! Standard spacers on the sides to center the wheel (machined down to fit!.) Got some spacers behind the Duc rotors and then I'll need custom hangers to fit the 4-piston Duc / Brembo calipers and the front is done! I bought a collection of the Duc axle spacers, so after getting back a proper fitting axle, we'll machine some of them down to center the wheel properly!

For the rear - also simple. (The front and rear Duc axles are the same diameter BTW.) So, for the rear, the Yamaha axle was too thick for the Paul Smart wheel bearing ID! Tossed it. Take the Duc axle (it's too long for the YZF swing-arm) and simply run the threads further down the axle and then cut it off to shorten it (matching the existing Yamaha axle in length.) Done - standard Paul Smart wheel bearings front and rear! Again, mix and match (and simply machine down) the Duc spacers from the collection that I procured (again, same diameter for the front and rear - so that makes it efficient!) The only two minor items to make fron scratch are the two aluminium wheel alignment / adjuster blocks that sit on the outside of the Yamaha swinger to tension the chain and align the wheel! Those we had to redo, but they are flat little square CNC blocks with a few markings on them and a hole in the center that the axle passes through (the new ones will now have the Duc axle ID, but still fit the Yamaha swinger on the outer dims!)

For the rear caliper we could use the stock caliper mount, but there is an aftermarket piece that does 2 things! a) It allows you to fit the 2 piston Brembo (again SBK-style) rear caliper and b) the custom caliper hanger allows you to swing the caliper down to a low hanging mounted position below the axle! I'll go that route and ditch the single piston sliding caliper of the Sport Classic.

For the rear sprocket position; based on the clearance that the chain has now to the swing-arm at the front, one can only move the rear sprocket SO far to the right and no more anyway! I'll just have my guy turn the sprocket carrier face / surface down a bit (perhaps a 1/4" or so) to move the sprocket to the right and then stop there! It'll be running a minimal offset to the left, but that's okay - I'm limited by the opening in the swing-arm anyway!

Back in the next few weeks with pictures! (I'm headed home to South Africa in December to see "the tribe", so it'll likely be into January before there's any real movement on the project now anyway!) I'm stoked though!
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#102 Post by JungleJustice » Fri Jul 18, 2014 6:53 pm

I've arguably been a bit distracted (bought a 2014 FZ-09 – LOVE that bike), as well as an ’80 YZ465 to go Vintage racing… Still trying to wrap up the ’80 CB650 Café, and various Alfa Romeo projects, maintain the ’80 GS1100, complete the CBX / Duc single-sided swing-arm conversions etc.

Too much crap to do, but things are on track again...

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#103 Post by JungleJustice » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:24 pm

Anyway, on to the V4 work...

I have been picking away at the retro "TZV500R" build though and as a result, the rear conversion of the aluminium Paul Smart rear wheel and rotor, with the Ducati 998 2-piston gold Brembo caliper - all fitted to the Yamaha 750 swinger, is done! 520 chain and sprockets, ready to ride!

The Paul Smart front ali spoke wheel with the Duc 998 4-pot gold Brembos and rotors are mocked up to the Yamaha 750 forks and I have the entire rolling front-end out of the bike and dropped off at the machine shop to fabricate the wheel spacers and permanent caliper brackets!

Image
Image
Image
Image
Last edited by JungleJustice on Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#104 Post by JungleJustice » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:32 pm

In my next life, I want to come back as a custom fabricator. What a PITA to not have the equipment, tooling and experience! I can make basic shit, but to do this right, you really need the skills of some of you other guys here...

For the rear - to convert that Ducati wire spoke wheel and brakes -
1) Toss the Yamaha axle bolt. Take the Duc bolt, cut it down to the length of the Yammer unit, and then re-thread the end of the bolt to receive the Ducati nut again. Also, drill safety / lock-wire (or split-pin holes), through the threaded end of the bolt.
2) Mill new adjuster blocks that fit the chain-tensioner opening on the outside of the swing-arm (so, the square OD at the same size as the Yamaha units), but with the Ducati axle diameter on the round ID...
3) Obtain a series of Ducati wheel spacers for the Sport Classic from the dealer. Ducati made it easy(ier), in that they made the front and rear axles the same diameter, so you can mix and match to find spacing.
4) I could not find a 520-pitch rear sprocket in the 42-tooth count, to fit a Ducati wheel. Doesn't exist. Vortex now has one and it actually has a part number too. Had it made to match the 520 chain and Honda RR off-set front sprocket that I was already running on this swing-arm conversion.
5) Had the one Duc frame block (that normally rides up against the inside of the Duc swing-arm on the left ), machined down by xxx of an inch to fit the stack that I was going with – just takes lots of trial and error.

It takes lots of in and out to get that wheel sitting just right. The challenge is centering the wheel and not having the bloody rear sprocket so out of alignment with the front sprocket (with the wheel centered, it wants to push that bloody rear sprocket WAY left…!)

If you try to bring the sprocket carrier in (considered having it machined), you drive the damn chain right into the tire and the chain will rub on the swing-arm up front! PITA… Why did I do this…!? (Oh yeah, to build a retro look. Aesthetics!) There's a good enough reason... Anyway, it’s done – we’ll see if it works.

Image
Image
Image
Last edited by JungleJustice on Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Anything with an engine in it...

JungleJustice
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:29 am
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

Re: "TZV500R" Retro Rebuild;

#105 Post by JungleJustice » Fri Jul 18, 2014 7:38 pm

For the brake, I spaced it all at the rear using the stock Sport Classic caliper hanger, but that only holds the standard single-piston slider caliper AND it mounts it at the top of the wheel.

I was then able to buy a nice Ducati aftermarket brake bracket that is there to convert the rear of those bikes to the 2-Piston Gold Brembos from the earlier SBK models AND to swing the caliper from the bottom now! That essentially made my Ducati 998 2-piston a bolt-on at that point - except that you have to use a spacer between the caliper swing-arm strut and the strut-mount on the Ducati caliper hanger...!

That was easy enough. I'll eventually come up with a nice bracket for that end of the caliper hanger to swing-arm strut.

The front is harder! More later...
Anything with an engine in it...

Post Reply