RD'll be back
Moderator: rztom
- Speed Freak
- - - - - -
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:38 pm
- Location: Voitsberg, Austria
Re: RD'll be back
As i have to do this work also on my good RD engine, i will try some different methods to get them out on my bad one.
1) Penetrating oil for 2-3 weeks - nothing changed
2) Heat - again nothing...
Alsways tried with 2 nuts tightened against each other, but it was not possible, they started to turn together before the stud bolt shows any sign of getting loose.
Finally i got all out by welding a nut on it and then cool them down with ice spray and oil + impact wrench.
Just one cracked - a friend took it to work and needed 2-3h to get it out on a milling machine without damaging the thread (i don`t like helicoil inserts).
Now i have ordered 2 types:
Hazet 844 to get them out without damage, but not possible to use the impact wrench:
Stahlwille, which will damage the thread anyway (just in case if the Hazet will not work):
Both types will not apply any bending load on the stud bolt if they are used with a T handle (that was priority 1 for me).
What i also want to try is to heat everything up to ~150-200°.
The theory behind this is, that there is this white "rust" (aluminum hydroxide) because of electrochemical corrosion.
This material fills up all gaps between aluminum part and bolt with pressure because it grows in volume.
By heating it up, aluminum hydroxide can be turned into aluminum oxide with a smaller volume that will help to loosen the bolt.
But this is theory... and my fear is that it is not possible to heat it up high enough without damaging the aluminum
maybe more interesting is the thermal expansion (aluminum expands twice as much as steel).
40 stud bolts are waiting to get removed (hopefully a full set without damage and not one cracked)
1) Penetrating oil for 2-3 weeks - nothing changed
2) Heat - again nothing...
Alsways tried with 2 nuts tightened against each other, but it was not possible, they started to turn together before the stud bolt shows any sign of getting loose.
Finally i got all out by welding a nut on it and then cool them down with ice spray and oil + impact wrench.
Just one cracked - a friend took it to work and needed 2-3h to get it out on a milling machine without damaging the thread (i don`t like helicoil inserts).
Now i have ordered 2 types:
Hazet 844 to get them out without damage, but not possible to use the impact wrench:
Stahlwille, which will damage the thread anyway (just in case if the Hazet will not work):
Both types will not apply any bending load on the stud bolt if they are used with a T handle (that was priority 1 for me).
What i also want to try is to heat everything up to ~150-200°.
The theory behind this is, that there is this white "rust" (aluminum hydroxide) because of electrochemical corrosion.
This material fills up all gaps between aluminum part and bolt with pressure because it grows in volume.
By heating it up, aluminum hydroxide can be turned into aluminum oxide with a smaller volume that will help to loosen the bolt.
But this is theory... and my fear is that it is not possible to heat it up high enough without damaging the aluminum
maybe more interesting is the thermal expansion (aluminum expands twice as much as steel).
40 stud bolts are waiting to get removed (hopefully a full set without damage and not one cracked)
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04
Re: RD'll be back
Definitely try to heat the aluminium and not the steel - also try cooling the whole thing rapidly with Loctite Freeze and Release to try and break the bond between the metals if you're having problems - I found all but one came out Ok for me - but that one had to go on a milling machine for removal - I think I weakened the steel of the stud with too much heat ?
Cheers
Paul
Cheers
Paul
- Speed Freak
- - - - - -
- Posts: 930
- Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:38 pm
- Location: Voitsberg, Austria
Re: RD'll be back
Usually you don`t get steel to such high temperatures, especially if it is combined with aluminum that melts much earlier than steel.
Until ~3-400°C there is no impact on the microstructure (like softening of hardened steel or the other way around).
But steel is loosing strength when it is hot.
The stud bolts are anyway quite soft and due to the notch effect it will always break at the beginning of the thread
Sadly there is no number stamped on the stud bolts or even the bolts of the crankcase.
Yamaha is using 12.9 high quality bolts everywhere, but the "problem bolts" shown in the picture are also too soft for 12.9 quality, otherwise it wouldn`t be that easy to turn the hexagon round.
I guess the crankcase bolts are all just 8.8 quality or maybe lower.
Reason could be that it is not good to combine a hard bolt with a soft counterpart on a high stress area.
But it is hard to find out... Maybe i can ask in my old school if they want to have a small "project" - finding out the yield strength of the RD500 crankcase bolts
Until ~3-400°C there is no impact on the microstructure (like softening of hardened steel or the other way around).
But steel is loosing strength when it is hot.
The stud bolts are anyway quite soft and due to the notch effect it will always break at the beginning of the thread
Sadly there is no number stamped on the stud bolts or even the bolts of the crankcase.
Yamaha is using 12.9 high quality bolts everywhere, but the "problem bolts" shown in the picture are also too soft for 12.9 quality, otherwise it wouldn`t be that easy to turn the hexagon round.
I guess the crankcase bolts are all just 8.8 quality or maybe lower.
Reason could be that it is not good to combine a hard bolt with a soft counterpart on a high stress area.
But it is hard to find out... Maybe i can ask in my old school if they want to have a small "project" - finding out the yield strength of the RD500 crankcase bolts
My bikes:
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04
RD500 YPVS 1GE
RD350 YPVS 31K 1985
Honda CBR 1000 RR SC57
Yamaha R1 RN04
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Hello all,
I'm happy to see my pictures can help as others in the forum helped me a lot
During these last days I didn't work a lot, it was holidays far from garage.
I only washed the different part of the engine before the rebuild process. I have to repaint cylinders and heads, but the other parts will need touch of paint as there is lot of marks.
As Speed Freak talk a lot about take care of bolts quality, I would like to replace many of bolts with "allen hexa print" ones, is there a place to find good quality ones?
I saw several Rz500 full bolts kit on the web, but don't really know what to think about.
Anyway, I wish everybody nice Xmas
cheers
Francis
I'm happy to see my pictures can help as others in the forum helped me a lot
During these last days I didn't work a lot, it was holidays far from garage.
I only washed the different part of the engine before the rebuild process. I have to repaint cylinders and heads, but the other parts will need touch of paint as there is lot of marks.
As Speed Freak talk a lot about take care of bolts quality, I would like to replace many of bolts with "allen hexa print" ones, is there a place to find good quality ones?
I saw several Rz500 full bolts kit on the web, but don't really know what to think about.
Anyway, I wish everybody nice Xmas
cheers
Francis
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
First I wish you an happy new year 2015
Hope lot of project will be done this year, specially mine
Today I managed to clean the valves, not yet mega clean but look really better than was before.
Concerning the (broken) holder (#25 & #28) , I finally bought a full set of CNC machined on ebay.
Ciao
Francis
Hope lot of project will be done this year, specially mine
Today I managed to clean the valves, not yet mega clean but look really better than was before.
Concerning the (broken) holder (#25 & #28) , I finally bought a full set of CNC machined on ebay.
Ciao
Francis
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Today I worked on brake topic and I found on ebay:
- Rear R6 master cylinder (same as in Bill Wilson restoration topic, thank's )
- Front FZS 1000 Fazer master cylinder
- CNC lever
I have to get now goodridge lines and the bikes will brake.
- Rear R6 master cylinder (same as in Bill Wilson restoration topic, thank's )
- Front FZS 1000 Fazer master cylinder
- CNC lever
I have to get now goodridge lines and the bikes will brake.
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Hi,
today was cleaning day of the engine one more time as it was really oily durty.
Now it's almost good:
I cleaned these parts and other outside in the windy afternoon, not very cold but with our "Mistral" wind, not easy, I was frozen Motivation, motivation !!
And here after a picture of my new CNC ypvs parts I talked about yesterday:
will try to work during this week...
Cheers
today was cleaning day of the engine one more time as it was really oily durty.
Now it's almost good:
I cleaned these parts and other outside in the windy afternoon, not very cold but with our "Mistral" wind, not easy, I was frozen Motivation, motivation !!
And here after a picture of my new CNC ypvs parts I talked about yesterday:
will try to work during this week...
Cheers
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Hi,
Today I received the first box I'm waiting for:
I received also news from Crankshaft in rebuild, end of month to get back
Brake parts should arrive soon... progress, slowly but progress
Today I received the first box I'm waiting for:
I received also news from Crankshaft in rebuild, end of month to get back
Brake parts should arrive soon... progress, slowly but progress
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Hi,
I received this morning the R6 rear master cylinder from Germany.
So to change mood in this sad week in France, today was 'braking news'.
A view to check everything looks correct, with R6 shortest than Rz. But as Bill said, we can exchange lot of things..
then I unmounted both cylinders, to transfer some RZ parts on R6 one.
The Rz hose connector will not enter in the R6 master cylinder if I keep the R6 seal.
I put the Rz seal in the R6 cylinder and everything comes right
I cleaned everything
One more thing, before to go back on frame, you have to modify a little the r6 cylinder to be able to put in in place, nothing difficult
Et voilà, a Racing touch for 25€
Ciao
I received this morning the R6 rear master cylinder from Germany.
So to change mood in this sad week in France, today was 'braking news'.
A view to check everything looks correct, with R6 shortest than Rz. But as Bill said, we can exchange lot of things..
then I unmounted both cylinders, to transfer some RZ parts on R6 one.
The Rz hose connector will not enter in the R6 master cylinder if I keep the R6 seal.
I put the Rz seal in the R6 cylinder and everything comes right
I cleaned everything
One more thing, before to go back on frame, you have to modify a little the r6 cylinder to be able to put in in place, nothing difficult
Et voilà, a Racing touch for 25€
Ciao
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
- two-stroke-brit
- Posts: 294
- Joined: Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:07 pm
- Location: Houston tx
Re: RD'll be back
so Francis ,whats the advantage of the R6 m/c over the old RZ one?
thanks mark
thanks mark
She might not be pretty but always a fun ride !!
Re: RD'll be back
I think the reason is because the old original one sadly is now NLA - so presumably this mod saves a lot of expensive engineering work getting the original re-sleeved ? - My original 47X rear m/c shows a very bad spiral wear pattern which would need fixing before a new m/c service kit could be installed.two-stroke-brit wrote:so Francis ,whats the advantage of the R6 m/c over the old RZ one?
thanks mark
Cheers
Paul
- Francis_FR
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 10:55 am
- Location: Marseille - France
Re: RD'll be back
Paul is right,
the original one was totally rusty, I had chance to save the long part to the pedal. In fact, I made one with two.
I was thinking to repair the V4 one but when I saw that Bill mounted an R6 model without problem I decided to find one, thinking fast, safe & simple.
Even if the R6 is 2002, it's "young" compare to my '87
I keep it with all the parts I changed, mainly brake parts. The bike is almost 30 years old, I managed to change every bearing and brakes parts to be "Zen" when I will take the level to stop before a curve.
By the way, I must say I like the Brembo logo, according rear with front.
Today I received the 2008 1000 Fazer front master cylinder.
It looks like the original one, I didn't want to have a "too" modern look, even if levers are actual look.
cheers
the original one was totally rusty, I had chance to save the long part to the pedal. In fact, I made one with two.
I was thinking to repair the V4 one but when I saw that Bill mounted an R6 model without problem I decided to find one, thinking fast, safe & simple.
Even if the R6 is 2002, it's "young" compare to my '87
I keep it with all the parts I changed, mainly brake parts. The bike is almost 30 years old, I managed to change every bearing and brakes parts to be "Zen" when I will take the level to stop before a curve.
By the way, I must say I like the Brembo logo, according rear with front.
Today I received the 2008 1000 Fazer front master cylinder.
It looks like the original one, I didn't want to have a "too" modern look, even if levers are actual look.
cheers
Best Regards
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
My bikes: Honda CB250K2 1970 / RD350Lc 57V 1985 / RD500Lc 47X 1987 / KTM 250 EXC 2005 /CB600N 2008
Re: RD'll be back
Also I forgot to say thanks for sharing the conversion info !
Cheers
Paul
Cheers
Paul
RD'll be back
Good feedback Francis, thanks!
I will also switch to an early R6 rear braking system with my swingarm conversion.
David.
I will also switch to an early R6 rear braking system with my swingarm conversion.
David.
Re: RD'll be back
Francis_FR wrote:Hi,
Today I received the first box I'm waiting for:
I received also news from Crankshaft in rebuild, end of month to get back
Brake parts should arrive soon... progress, slowly but progress
Hi !
Where did you order those brake/clutch levers ?
// Jeppe