Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

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ns86
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Location: ontario canada

Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#31 Post by ns86 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 am

As far as the reliability of the suspended engine in an RGV500 goes I can only give my experience with my 2 bikes. I ride fairly hard but nowhere near what loads would be generated on a track. Previous owner rode both bikes at 150 kph or more on the Sea to Sky HWY and knowing that road it would be experiencing some fairly high stress loads on the chassis. I have no issues with them. The twin spar RGV250 frame seems very robust and it's design concentrates the stresses in a straight line from steering head to swingarm pivot which is about as good as it gets. It could be that under racing loads the torsional rigidity could be improved with the addition of a cradle subframe. If that is in fact what is going on it stands to reason that the engine is stressed under High loading. And even then it is still a grey area if that is an issue unless motor mounts or cases are failing? We need more info Giron on what exactly is the cause/effect in the RGV500 situation.

The ATR YZR/RZ500 is a different beast. With Brians input I am on the fence with my 3xv500 project

[URL=http://s1135.photobucket.com/user/ ... .jpg[/img][/url]
Last edited by ns86 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1985 RZ500
1986 RG500
1986 RG500 C
1992 RGV500 WW ATR
1992 RGV500 LS
1985 NS500 Spencer p
1989 TZR500 Biaggi p
1984 RZV500 Rainey p
1994 NSR250sp R
1983 NS250 p
1987 RG250 WW p
1983 RG250 p
1988 YSR50 p

BRIAN TURFREY
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#32 Post by BRIAN TURFREY » Mon Sep 19, 2016 1:27 pm

"AS I SAID,

IF ANYONE THINKS IT IS OK TO DRILL INTO THE SIDE OF THE BASE OF THE CYLINDER AND TAP A 6mm and 8mm HOLE APPROX 60mm APART ( IN THE PORT WHERE IT IS 5mm to 6mm thick ) AND USE THAT AS AN ENGINE MOUNT POINT,

( "YOU HAVE LOST YOUR FUCKING MIND ".... FUCKING MORON.... AND EVERY OTHER DISRESPECTFUL NAME I COULD USE YOU )

That was my only comment about mounting points, seems like everyone here is on the band wagon with "Stress points"... "Frames " etc etc... but really,,,,,, has any stupid fucker here taken the time to "really look at what i have said ? cause if ya did... ya may think about what i have said again?

"LOOK AT AN RZ500 CYLINDER UPSIDE DOWN IN THE BASE/PORT AREA HOW THICK THE PORT WALL IS"? ( HELL, LOOK AT ANY CYLINDER, SAME SPOT, RZ350, WHATEVER? )

"AGAIN",,, IF YOU THINK IT IS OK TO HANG THE MOTOR USING TAPED HOLES INTO THE SIDE OF CYLINDER PORTS, ?

YOU WOULD BE A 100%... GRADE "A" FUCKING MORON?


i GIVE UP??????????????????

Questo vecchio rz
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#33 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:20 pm

Oh Fuck! Im laughing....I think Mr. Turfrey has provided enough 1st hand evidence regarding the TZR frame to certainlly enlighten all of us as to potential issues that could prove dangerous. Hopefully those who have or are doing a similar concept on their own can use this info to better delvlop a solution around the problems be it a cradle or redesigned format.

His enthusiasm is evident..lol. Dont be offended by the typed words, you'd have to meet him in person to see his "colorful " personality hes a dammned good guy and straight shooter! His personality reminds me of "Quint" from Jaws..lol. A old school knowledgable guy whom you can put your trust in. .

This is a good workshop thread, with constructive results.
Thanks all.
Banshee (Baja) Full Tilt desert race bike
Royal Enfield 500
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura TT-F1 Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ421/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 Flying Fred Merkel replica (project)

BRIAN TURFREY
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#34 Post by BRIAN TURFREY » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:30 pm

Thanks for the kind words Questo .... i'm a "dick".... just ask anyone they will tell ya !!!!

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ns86
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#35 Post by ns86 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:13 pm

As I said, with Brians input I am definitely on the fence with my 3xv500 project now. I agree 100% on the Cylinder base mounting issue and it doesn't seem possible to mount in the 3xv frame without the engine significantly tilted, it is so short. I have not seen a 3xv version that successfully deals with these issues now that they have been pointed out. Back to my 3ma build for now.
Last edited by ns86 on Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1985 RZ500
1986 RG500
1986 RG500 C
1992 RGV500 WW ATR
1992 RGV500 LS
1985 NS500 Spencer p
1989 TZR500 Biaggi p
1984 RZV500 Rainey p
1994 NSR250sp R
1983 NS250 p
1987 RG250 WW p
1983 RG250 p
1988 YSR50 p

silverstrom
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#36 Post by silverstrom » Mon Sep 19, 2016 3:44 pm

I think it could have been said better. It is permissible to have a difference of opinion and it is possible to argue your point without a disrespectful, insulting tone and attitude. There is more than one way to mount the engine and the fact that you may disagree with a particular method does not give you license to spout off and insult forum members whose opinion is different than yours. If the method some seem to take great offence to has proven successful for well over a decade I think it is both unfair and unwise to cast negative judgement. You do what works for you and the rest will do what works for them. There is absolutely no need to resort to schoolyard type rants like a 7 year old having a temper tantrum. Whatever happened to professionalism? It seems strikingly absent.

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#37 Post by giron » Mon Sep 19, 2016 4:18 pm

John

Maybe no one was listening to Brian. I can say he is very passionate when he provides his knowledge. My bitching with the cradle is indirectly what Brian is trying to get across, but no one is listening. Take a look at the last picture check the angle of the engine. Look at the carburetors and how is the transmission is getting lubricated. They say a picture is worth a thousand words
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

MK
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#38 Post by MK » Tue Sep 20, 2016 2:11 pm

BRIAN TURFREY wrote: That was my only comment about mounting points, seems like everyone here is on the band wagon with "Stress points"... "Frames " etc etc... but really,,,,,, has any stupid fucker here taken the time to "really look at what i have said ? cause if ya did... ya may think about what i have said again?
WTF, forgot to press the shift key here ?
My advice: Take your pills more regularly and hands off the keyboard after a bottle of booze.
Bye
Martin

begbie
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Location: UK

Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#39 Post by begbie » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:03 pm

giron wrote:John

Maybe no one was listening to Brian. I can say he is very passionate when he provides his knowledge. My bitching with the cradle is indirectly what Brian is trying to get across, but no one is listening. Take a look at the last picture check the angle of the engine. Look at the carburetors and how is the transmission is getting lubricated. They say a picture is worth a thousand words
The stock RG500's carbs are not at 90 degree's to the ground, what do you think happens to fuel and oil in carbs and gear box when cornering, braking, accelerating ?

silverstrom
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#40 Post by silverstrom » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:42 pm

You may be whipping a dead horse Begbie.

Those Gamma carbs aren't far off the stock positions.

As for transmissions, let's not forget that the RZ500 transmission is not just a splash lubrication system. It also has a gearbox oil pump. Mounting the engine at a non-traditional angle isn't a critical issue. Engines with a gearbox oil pump hold less oil than a splash only system. Less oil, but better lubrication than a splash only system, and it functions just fine at any angle. The RZ500 holds 1.6 litres of oil. The RZ350, a splash lubrication only system, holds more at 1.7 litres. My TZR has a gearbox oil pump and holds only 1 litre of gearbox oil.

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#41 Post by giron » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:06 pm

Hi John

I just came from my second garage and I just took a look at my RZV and then at my RG500. The engines look level. Maybe I should take a leveler and see if the engine is level. Maybe Suzuki and Yamaha did it for a reason
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

RuZty
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#42 Post by RuZty » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:35 pm

...and maybe that reason was because that was the way it fit best and then they made the name on the side cover parallel with the ground so people would think all kinds of serious laboratory work was done by really smart god-like people with Japanese engineering degrees (that unfortunately didn't include Italian metallurgy lessons).

Questo vecchio rz
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#43 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:57 pm

silverstrom wrote:

As for transmissions, let's not forget that the RZ500 transmission is NOT just a splash lubrication system. It also has a gearbox OIL PUMP. Mounting the engine at a non-traditional angle isn't a critical issue. Engines with a gearbox oil pump hold less oil than a splash only system. Less oil, but better lubrication than a splash only system, and it functions just fine at any angle. The RZ500 holds 1.6 litres of oil. The RZ350, a splash lubrication only system, holds more at 1.7 litres. My TZR has a gearbox oil pump and holds only 1 litre of gearbox oil.
That is one valid point that I was also thinking of as well, If I was doing a conversion (which Im not) I'd certainlly look into that and the( location of the oil jet or jets and presure etc..) While not a pressurized dry sump it seems "to me"...lol it should work?
I'm not that familiar w the 500 motor only one possibly for a project in the future..but quite honestly doubtful. I rely on "all" of you guys for specific insight at this point.

Great thread...just in case in the future if $$ falls from the sky or that dammned $ tree produces any fruit..I'd be intrested. But for now... just intresting thoughts & reading & bench building a hybrid in my head. For me a hybrid build to my specs would no doubt arrive w a pricetag exceeding 25k & that aint gonna happen! I have too many other intrests , debt and responsibilities right now.But never say never.

All of you are connected by this hobby to some degree and all "hopefully" benefit from conversation be it harsh or soft, insulting or sarcastic.
One thing I do know "outside of a internet forum" its likley most if us would get on just fine ..meeting. for our mutual hobby in person, riding and talking over a drink.

Please keep the info flowing, as you all proceed.
Last edited by Questo vecchio rz on Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Banshee (Baja) Full Tilt desert race bike
Royal Enfield 500
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura TT-F1 Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ421/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 Flying Fred Merkel replica (project)

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#44 Post by giron » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:04 pm

Rutzy

You mention Italian metal over Japanese. The Japanese have gotten better. I remember my CL77 305 scrambler back in the 60's. Now you know that my bikes are my bucket list. Anyway on my 305. I had to use 1/4 drive ratchet. I would snap the bolts off. You do have to give Japanese credit. They come a long way with bikes in the last 50 years.
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

silverstrom
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Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2012 7:36 am

Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#45 Post by silverstrom » Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:32 pm

giron wrote:Hi John

I just came from my second garage and I just took a look at my RZV and then at my RG500. The engines look level. Maybe I should take a leveler and see if the engine is level. Maybe Suzuki and Yamaha did it for a reason
Yes, the reason was aesthetics.

Why would any engineer design a bike that relied on the engine being level to ensure its survival? The first time the bike hit the track or twisty road the engine would grenade. Look around this forum and look at some of the amazing track bikes that have been built and ask yourself if the engine being level matters. As long as there have been RZ500s and RG500s guys have been stuffing the engines into tiny frames they weren't designed for. It's not as if the first RGV500 or TZR500 was built last week. Guys have been building them for about 30 years. Do you really think people would still be doing it if it wasn't a successful hybrid?

I know where you're going with this, and I do understand your point of view, but getting your information from one flawed source can lead you astray.

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