Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

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silverstrom
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#16 Post by silverstrom » Sun Sep 18, 2016 12:32 am

giron wrote:John lets get back to the RZ500 and RG500 hanging from the cylinders. Why are they breaking?
I was talking about the TZR frames with RZ500 motor hung from the cylinders. How many of those are breaking?

The RG500 is a square 4. Perhaps that has something to do with the issues there. I've seen several RGV500s and haven't seen a failure yet. Then again, I don't get out much. I'll ask Andrew about it. He has experience with the RGV500 conversion.

My background is aviation. Fighter jets and helicopters. I've worked with some pretty bright people, but I've talked to some engineers that were just clueless. Don't confuse a degree and actual ability. Many people do and it's a mistake. Often the most capable builders are not engineers. Yamaha's engineers designed the RZ500 motor with a cassette gearbox, but then decided you need to remove the engine from the frame to access it. Sure, it's a simple thing, but it shows that perceived brilliance isn't always accurate.

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#17 Post by giron » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:03 am

If the bike that is at Brian's shop came from ATR that leaves a lot to be desired. I'm not referring to the engine and how it was put together. A TZR250 3XV frame? Are they serious. I know about that since RGVSteve put one together for me, but it was a RZ350 engine and no room between the heads and the front wheel. You sold me an engine so Brian could do the project properly and yes Brian will use a cradle not a trapeze for a front engine mount

As far are airplanes are concerned military?
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#18 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:00 am

silverstrom wrote:My background is aviation. Fighter jets and helicopters. I've worked with some pretty bright people, but I've talked to some engineers that were just clueless. Don't confuse a degree and actual ability. Many people do
Amen brother, I've worked with same, and doctors & lawyers whom are as helpless & clueless as infants when out of their element, and a few that makes you wonder how on Gods earth they manage to have jobs in their field to begin with, its truly mind boggling.
giron wrote:As far are airplanes are concerned military?
.
Okay..you asked for it. HMmmm? Clue No.1= "fighter jets". :smt002
RuZty wrote:Giron, I don't know what your background is but you talk about the engineers at the Japanese factories with god-like reverence as if they are the only people in the world who understand how things work.
You can add RGV Steve & Brian to that list...Now I'd like to be crystal clear on this: I totally respect their abilities and knowledge & experiance and invaluable service they have provided to many here, but it does get a little redundant. I'd like to see some Giron posts without mention of them...in almost every post.
We Get It! :smt006

(Giron, dont take offense) :smt006 , just having fun. You and others have helped many here, thanks for that and helping maintain discussions. Like we've mentioned, some think it can be done, some have done it ( in diffrent ways...lol) I'm no engineer , I'm smarter than some, but certainlly NOT as smart as others, I too am amazed at how brilliant some indaviduals are, truly on a diffrent level of understanding and a privlige to spend time in discussions with. As time and technology marches on , some of us regular mortals are able to out think some of our predecessors. But credit is due to those who paved the way for the rest if us, and its always too easy to critique or reenvision anothers work in whatever field, only after they did all the braincrunching 1st.
silverstrom wrote:
giron wrote:John lets get back to the RZ500 and RG500 hanging from the cylinders. Why are they breaking?

The RG500 is a square 4. Perhaps that has something to do with the issues there. I've seen several RGV500s and haven't seen a failure yet. Then again, I don't get out much. I'll ask Andrew about it. He has experience with the RGV500 conversion
I have 25 year collection of motorcycle publications & books and therein are probably 50 RGV/RG500 conversions,
I'd say there far more common than the TZR, but to be honest I cant remember which ones cradle the motor or mount/hang from the the frame, either by cylinders or engine case. Like many of you, I surf the net more than I should and the news of frame cracking is news to me. I've had a few RZ350s & the frames just crack without any help at all...lol

It would be IMO intresting if Silverstrom was able to provide some constructive information from ATR/Alien for the sake of discussion, on some aspects or details of various approaches. NOT to fuel any arguments. Were big boys & can bury hatchets and make up our own minds of what path ourselves or others choose.

Good thread started here, good discussion.
Banshee (Baja) Full Tilt desert race bike
Royal Enfield 500
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura TT-F1 Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ421/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 Flying Fred Merkel replica (project)

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Ax-Racing
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#19 Post by Ax-Racing » Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:23 am

totally agree with all new comments

i can not guarantee about reliability of my conversion because they run only for few track days
but i want to talk about first FZR1000 genesis, bike with cardle frame,.
With this engine, Nimota make an aluminim double spar frame, with front part of engine
suspended by head studs. Bimota made hundreds of these bikes, who race and ride foro years
with apparently no issues on engine cases.
after two years, Yamaha made first FZR 1000 exup models, they simply add a small amount of
aluminium on both side of head, made a hole on it and screw directly head into a new design frame.

no other modification needed on cases to switch from cardle to suspended engine.

other concept i have in mind is that, in early '80, bikesw was engineered end developed thinking
at frame and engine as two separate entities, nowadays projects born toghether and extremely
joined. so all new bikes are more intgrated than in past.
for this reason, I think that, it's quite easy to make improvements starting from a 30 years old bike
than work on a recent unit.
Alex

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#20 Post by giron » Sun Sep 18, 2016 1:03 pm

I have a 1992 FZR1000 and I see the front mounting points of the engine. What I'm trying to get across this board with extreme difficulty. The factories whether Suzuki or Yamaha. They design the heart of the bike (engine and frame) one way. We should respect the design (engine and frame)
Again I'm the first one to swap out a swingarm and front end on a 80's bike with keeping the proper geometry. Brian and RGVSteve can testify for that.
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

RuZty
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#21 Post by RuZty » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:08 pm

So do all your bike have the exact type of engine that came with the frame?

RC45
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#22 Post by RC45 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:18 pm

A hung object (engine) doesn't care where the mount (bracket) comes from, only that it is working against gravity - the mount (bracket) will care whether it is under compression or tension holding the object. The hung object already has the strength to resist the mounting forces built into the POINTS the mount is attached to, or they wouldn't be able to hold up the object using the original mount (cradle).

As far as the original mount points on the object goes (in this case the engine) they don't care if they are attached to a cradle or a bracket dropped down from a twin spar frame.

The only question is whether any NEW mounting points are up to the task.

That was the gist of my opening post - whether using NEW mount points has turned out to be an issue.

But the option to ditch the cradle while keeping the original mount points can only work - it has to, the original mount points are still doing exactly the same job they where designed to do - hold up the engine :)
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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#23 Post by giron » Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:35 pm

Thank You. There is intelligence in this forum after all

"The only question is whether any NEW mounting points are up to the task.

That was the gist of my opening post - whether using NEW mount points has turned out to be an issue.

But the option to ditch the cradle while keeping the original mount points can only work - it has to, the original mount points are still doing exactly the same job they where designed to do - hold up the engine"

The original mounting points were not on the cylinders with a 6 or 8mm bolts.
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

RC45
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#24 Post by RC45 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:11 pm

:)
CBR1000RR SP2 HRC WSBK
TZ500V/OW53 Track bike
YZR500 OW81 Clone
OW69 Daytona 200 Replica - 784cc Monster
NS400 Track Bike
RS250R NF5
TZ250T 2KM
TZ250B 3YL
TZR250 3MA Track Bike
427ci C5 Z07

silverstrom
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#25 Post by silverstrom » Sun Sep 18, 2016 9:37 pm

giron wrote:Thank You. There is intelligence in this forum after all
That's right. The rest of us are just mindless idiots here for your amusement. :smt011

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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#26 Post by RC45 » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:01 pm

silverstrom wrote:
giron wrote:Thank You. There is intelligence in this forum after all
That's right. The rest of us are just mindless idiots here for your amusement. :smt011
I hope that is not what he meant.

I don't think it was though.

But I just don't see how anyone can debate passed the point I made with this question without providing sound engineering analysis:

Are the NEW mount points up to the task of the factory engineered mount points?

The concept of hanging the engine is sound and valid. The concept of ditching the cradles is sound and valid. The conecpt of using NEW mount points on the barrels or cylinder heads is sound and valid ONLY with valid structural analysis.

Now the fact the engine cases, barrels and heads might only last 10 race weekends might not be a problem for some - so why worry. Hell, we don't even know if the cases, barrels or heads will be damaged by being used as mount points - until they get damaged ;)

But then again, what do I know - I keep 2 bloody hand cannons in my Tahoe for self defense rather than arm myself with wit and savvy to try negotiate a settlement LOL.
CBR1000RR SP2 HRC WSBK
TZ500V/OW53 Track bike
YZR500 OW81 Clone
OW69 Daytona 200 Replica - 784cc Monster
NS400 Track Bike
RS250R NF5
TZ250T 2KM
TZ250B 3YL
TZR250 3MA Track Bike
427ci C5 Z07

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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#27 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Sun Sep 18, 2016 11:41 pm

Soulutions to problems are clearly laid out by the thread author. He knows what needs to be done as do many here.
Its fundamentally the same ideas and solutions I spoke of previouslly.
AxRacing, ( has done it )and also is aware of any potential issues. I had a 89 FZR1000 as well and studied that bike very carefully vs the cradled 88, yes not too much diffrent.

Any (non- reinforced) frame or case cracking I'd think would NOT be catostropic but progressive and as in aviation/aerospace regular inspection routines would be advised.
IMO outside of fabrication skills,(lack therof) this is a fairly simple process to envision and even a trained monkey could figure out. Only a dipshit could F#@k it up.

Not going to discuss 6 & 8 mm bolt & load strength nor bolts into ports as weve discussed the solutions already

Im not selling myself nor the others I mentioned short on Intelligence, as we can easily envision it & whats needed.
Enough of the "engineering" idols.... each year there are 100s of thousands of failures of "engineered" parts & components., thats says enough in itself about the reality of real world concept to production.
Anyone buy a exploding Samsung this month?

Send me a "suspended" built bike, I'll look it over and do a "long term test ride", I'll ride the piss out of it and let you know how it works in a yr or two :smt033
Last edited by Questo vecchio rz on Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Banshee (Baja) Full Tilt desert race bike
Royal Enfield 500
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura TT-F1 Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ421/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 Flying Fred Merkel replica (project)

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#28 Post by giron » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:02 am

John the intelligence remark was not intended towards you. I have been burned by know it all in southern California. One of them was a respectable so called shop in orange county. He made promises and finally would not return the parts unless I pay I would say a ransom for the parts. The other three guys again know it all. I invite them to my house when I'm not looking they help themselves. John you did not burn me so we got that clear. I purchase a TZR250 3XV frame with a conversion idea. The SP forks disappear after the deal while it was deliver. I find that Americans are harder to trust than the Japanese. I buy something from Yahoo Japan. I send them the Japanese yen by mail and they not only ship the part, but send me the change. I found that after dealing in the two stroke world. I found a very limited number of honest people in the states. Yes only two, Brian and RGVSteve.

All my bikes are in the original frames (13 bikes) The plan is to star on the three hybrids this year. 250 frames with different engines.

What irritates mostly is people passing themselves as guru and ripping people off.
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

Questo vecchio rz
Posts: 198
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#29 Post by Questo vecchio rz » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:14 am

Jeeez Giron.. :smt002 .Do you have a contract that stipulates inclusion of accociates in every conversation & get paid royalties for mentioning RGV Steve & Brian. I cant land those deals!...lol


Now your probably from the same era as I and most here we have all been screwed by people and we have all been screwed by 2 stroke people but you must be" living in a bubble" thinking that you only have two, that you can trust.

I can give you the names of 2 dozen individuals whom are trustworthy in their various fields of motorcycle maintenance and fabrication & I don't get out that often., Hell I'm guessing even Brian and Steve can recommend dozens themselves ,seriouslly:smt002

I'ts all good & your good people..but... :smt015 :smt015 :smt015
Banshee (Baja) Full Tilt desert race bike
Royal Enfield 500
96 GSXR SRAD, Future Yoshimura TT-F1 Lucky Strike rep.
85 custom Tri-Z
RZ421/YZR track bike(project)
86 VFR750 Flying Fred Merkel replica (project)

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giron
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Re: Suspended versus Cradled RZ500 engine hybrid builds

#30 Post by giron » Mon Sep 19, 2016 12:39 am

I don't want to mention someone on this site, but he did try to get a part from me just last month in a very shady way or basically trying to in a dishonest way. I was bringing parts from Japan and selling parts on fleabay. Brian did advised me that its going to backfire just because of the two stroke world. He was right. The bikes are not the problem are the shady characters ripping people off.

I just completed bids in Yahoo Japan. I will send the Japanese Jen by mail and I will receive the change back. How many sellers on flea bay do that? How often do you comes across that type of honesty?
1991 3MATZR250SP
!993 3XVTZR250SP
1996 RGV250(Lucky Strike)
1994 MC28SP
1995 MC28SP
1996 MC28SP
1985 RG500(Walter Wolfe)
1984 IT490
1985 RZV500R
1985 NS400R
1985 NS400R
1997 VFR750
1992 FZR1000
RGV400
TZR500
TZR350
1990 RZ350
1971 Porsche911S

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