Zeeltronic......

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Paulrs
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:27 pm
Location: Royston, UK

Re: Zeeltronic......

#16 Post by Paulrs » Thu Sep 08, 2016 5:18 pm

Just in case it's any help, I have just struggled to get a spark on my standard ignition. Tested everything and even hooked up an ossiloscope. All resistances Ok, earths Ok and seeing voltages generated on the source and pick up coils. So convinced myself the cdi was dead.

Purchased a new Weiltronic unit as it was plug and play.

Still no spark. Should say at this time the bike has been in bits for a long while and it's around 12 years since it last ran. All parts are original and were working when the bike was stripped.

Contacted the very helpful Willy from Weiltronic and after some basic checks he said set the pickup gap to 0.5mm.

It's a bit of a challenge to measure but with some creative use of sticky tape the gap measured to around 1.1mm. Using more sticky tape I bodged the gap to 0.5mm and spark returned and the engine ran.

I have stripped off the rotor and rotor housing, but can see nothing wrong with the assembly and nothing's damaged. Done a proper fix now to set the gap to 0.5mm without tape. Willy comment was the pick ups loose effectiveness after 30 years of heat and vibration.

Final part of the story is the original cdi also works when the gap is set to 0.5mm.

Paul.

steveho
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:01 pm
Location: Southampton, England

Re: Zeeltronic......

#17 Post by steveho » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:34 pm

Thanks for the input Paul.
I stripped down my custom loom today, which I REALLY hated doing, as I made a pretty neat job in building it, and found all connections spot on.
I was going to send the Zeeltronic unit back to Borut, as per his suggestion. Even though I think my pick up is working as I get an output on the controller, I will check the gap as per your suggestion. I'll report findings.
Cheers.

steveho
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:01 pm
Location: Southampton, England

Re: Zeeltronic......

#18 Post by steveho » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:41 am

Eureka!!! (Well sort of).
Followed Paul's advice and looked at the pick-up coil position. I have removed the outer cover locating dowels, and biased the cover to move the pick-up coil closer to the flywheel. Now I have weak sparks, and the hand-held display is showing more rpm when kicking it over than it was before. Will now look at setting it to a 0.5mm gap properly.

I'm glad I just unwrapped the harness and not desoldered or cut any wires. :smt041 :smt041

steveho
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2015 4:01 pm
Location: Southampton, England

Re: Zeeltronic......

#19 Post by steveho » Sun Sep 11, 2016 8:52 am

Measured pick-up gap and is around 1.25mm. Have modified it to around 0.5mm.
Now have 4 blue sparks. However, they look weak to me, but as this is an AC CDI, the spark should improve with revs. I am only turning the engine over by hand with the kickstart, as it is elevated on a lift. Run out of time today to attempt a (first ever) start. Fingers are firmly crossed....... :rolleyes:

Paulrs
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:27 pm
Location: Royston, UK

Re: Zeeltronic......

#20 Post by Paulrs » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:42 pm

The sparks I got were not the fattest sparks in the world at hand crank speed, but they were enough to start and run the engine fine.

One thing I noticed was the core of the pick up was magnetised and attracted a screwdriver, while the blocks on the rotor didn't really seem to be very magnetic. I sort of expected it to be the other way round (not sure why)

Assuming the core of the pick up is meant to be magnetic, it is possible it looses its magnetic power over time and generates less milli volts.

Sadly new pick ups are NLA from Yamaha so I can't compare. Comments or thoughts welcome.

All a bit weird as the rotor/pick up arrangement is most definitely not built with adjustment in mind.

Paul

MK
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:54 pm
Location: Germany
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Re: Zeeltronic......

#21 Post by MK » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:55 pm

Where's the problem? You can get replacement pick-ups either from zeeltronic.com or ignitech.cz for some 15-30 Eur.
I often order them with new CDI's to replace the old ones.

If you need some info on how it works:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variabl ... nce_sensor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bye
Martin

mgtj59
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:45 am
Location: Germany

Re: Zeeltronic......

#22 Post by mgtj59 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:36 pm

Hello together,

I struggling with this issue myself about two wasted Saturdays. In my case there are only weak sparks at the rear coil with the zeel PCDI-V24, causing backfiring an wet spark plugs on the front cylinders. I have installed new plugs for the CDI and YVPS controller on both sides. When I switch back to the original parts the bike runs prefect.

Is the Zeel CDI so sensitive to the pickup gap?
The wires from pick-up are very close to the front ignition coil (and the stator wires too). Is that critical?
A question to Martin; you have installed some Zeel´s, was pick up gap of the orginal setup ever a problem?
I have had some corrosion on different plugs at the bike (but after 30 years.....)

Last Saturday evening I hardly thought about buying the Igintech and putting the Zeel in the bin.

Thanks for your thread steveho and all kind comments

MK
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:54 pm
Location: Germany
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Re: Zeeltronic......

#23 Post by MK » Mon Sep 12, 2016 2:55 pm

Including my own I personally installed Zeeltronic ignitions on 3 RD500.
All of them CDI/VCDI/PPV combinations, not the all-in-one boxes mentioned here.
And all of them were working out-of-the box.

On the other side I personally installed/assisted Ignitech DC CDI P2 on 3 RD500's and all of them had EMI issues. (Lack of spark around 6 k)
In 2 cases they were replaced with Zeeltronic stuff, other was resolved by relocation of the above suspected lower coil to the right engine side.
It may likely be a mixed issue with EMI AND a weak pick up, but at the end I decided not to use Ignitechs on the RD500.
On the 350 it works fine and I have installed/assisted about a dozen of them without the above issues.

If there is a regular issue with the pickup on the RD500, it may not be the worst idea to get a new pick up by default and adjust a rather tight gap like 0.5 mm.
http://ignitech.cz/en/vyrobky/accessori ... ick-up.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.zeeltronic.com/page/misc.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW: I'm a fan of DC CDI's as it eliminates the weak spark at kicking/idling and you get rid of the dependency between CDI and source coils. That's a lot less troublemakers ...
Bye
Martin

mgtj59
Posts: 8
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:45 am
Location: Germany

Re: Zeeltronic......

#24 Post by mgtj59 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:20 pm

Hi Martin,

thanks for your fast and brief reply. I will follow your suggestion and spend one more Saturday trying to get the Zeel running. My decision to install a Zeel was triggered by your tuning manual, causing my interest to do some optimisation with the bike, which is my dream of the past, when I started motorcycling with an aircooled RD250.

regards

Manfred

Paulrs
Posts: 67
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 5:27 pm
Location: Royston, UK

Re: Zeeltronic......

#25 Post by Paulrs » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:54 pm

Possibly the important thing to come from this debate is a pick up coil with factory perfect resistance values may not actually be a good pick up coil. Other factors like the magnetism of its core (hard to measure) may influence its performance.

Possibly by coincidence, both the Yamaha and Weiltronic cdi's I have started to make sparks with a gap of around 0.7mm and looked convincing with a gap of 0.5mm, so I guess thier trigger voltages were similar.

Regarding 30 year old plugs, there are some good tips on YouTube around cleaning electrical connectors and contacts that worked far better for me than the typical cleaning sprays.

Paul

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