Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

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Dirk in Portland

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#1 Post by Dirk in Portland » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:21 pm

Bill & Tracy,<p>I think both approaches have merits that may appeal to different people. I agree with Bill W. that many owners are going to want the conversion performed by a reputable tuner with readily available parts. There will also be those who want to push the envelope and also be a little different. From a sales standpoint, I would think that a bolt-on kit with new cylinders would be the most practical. Two carbs or four is a detail that will be worked out in time.<p>I should probably qualify my proposal for a CNC machined upper case. I have an engineering firm that specializes in reverse engineering and manufacturing of new parts for older aircraft. One of our current projects is producing new magnesium transmission housings for Boeing C Model CH47 Chinook helicopters. Boeing no longer makes these housings, so we had to completely reverse engineer and tool up to make new ones. Hence my interest in making new upper cases for the RZ.<p>I would be willing to reverse engineer the upper case and provide CNC machined versions for those who would be interested. I am leaning towards making all four cylinders use case reeds, but it could be produced either for case or cylinder reeds.<p>Maybe the best of both worlds would be a CNC upper case with Bill's new cylinders.<p>Personally, my goal is to produce 140 RWHP using a new upper case, TZ cylinders, and purpose built chambers. Call me nuts.<p>Looking forward to feedback.<p>Dirk Ellis<br>Portland, Oregon USA<p>
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dirkandpamellis@comcast.net

Wyn Belorusky

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#2 Post by Wyn Belorusky » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:34 pm

Dirk - that sounds great!! Would you also offer the service of matching the new upper case to the old lower? The cases were machined as a pair from the factory.
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RZVWyn@aol.com

Dirk in Portland

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#3 Post by Dirk in Portland » Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:52 pm

Wyn,<p>Yes, I would also offer the service of matching the cases. It's the only way to do it right. I would also offer the upper case with the bearing surfaces undersized for those tuners that wanted to handle the machine work themselves. One of the beauties of the CNC approach is that by relatively minor program changes, different cylinder base heights, bolt patterns, and transfer shapes can be incorporated.<p>Does anybody know of any snowmobile cylinders that may be a potential donor?<p>Thanks,<p>Dirk Ellis<br>Portland, Oregon USA
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dirkandpamellis@comcast.net

ciaran

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#4 Post by ciaran » Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:21 pm

Dirk,<p> if you are going to machine complete cases for the rz maybe we should consider machining them to accept rz350 cranks/cylinders.These are readily available and relatively cheap and have lots of development work already done on them.<br> It might just be possible to squeeze 140bhp from a 500cc setup but at the expense of rideability and reliability. Yamaha claims its new r6 makes 140bhp so we'd still be playing catch up with modern sportbikes.<br> Consider a 700cc that would make 130bhp without even trying or a big bore 800cc with the right carb/ported cylinders - pipe combination that should be good for 165bhp or more. <br> Comments.................?????????<p><br> Ciaran
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Dirk in Portland

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#5 Post by Dirk in Portland » Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:02 pm

Ciaran,<p>The idea for making new cases is for the upper case only. Making the upper case would allow for using different cylinders, but would would require using the stock crank configuration. Making a new main case (lower)would be quite a bit more work.<p>I believe 140 RWHP to be achievable using TZ250 cylinders and ignition. With the average TZ250 making 80 HP plus, it seems that 140 is realistic. Reliability and rideability are less of an issue, as this would be primarily a track bike. New pipes would be designed to suit the setup and application, and two ignition systems could be used, one off of each crank. This approach is a science project at best, and probably won't appeal to most people, but the lure of making 140 plus RWHP is too much to pass up.<p>Bill W's approach of new cylinders on existing cases should have much more mass appeal, and this would be my choice for the street.<p>Thanks for the input and ideas.<p>Dirk Ellis<br>Portland, Oregon USA
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dirkandpamellis@comcast.net

Coop

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#6 Post by Coop » Wed Nov 02, 2005 1:03 am

Hey Dirk, Sounds great, but lets just work on a group buy on this motor from AAEN performance. <p>http://www.aaenperformance.com/V4_racin ... sp<p>800cc, 200hp with fuel injection. <br>If not why stick with some older technology, lets work on adding some of the new 2 stroke tech. from<br>the snowmobiling community. Things like Yamaha's DCS (Detenation Control System, retards timing when det. occurs) or maybe Ski-doo's SDI (semi-direct injection, crank case injection) maybe even Gas powered exhaust valves from Ski-doo (no cables or servos, just exhaust pressure acctuated valves) or a dual ignition mapping like the polaris have (one for reg. and one for prem. fuel) or better lets try interchangable domes for the heads.<p>I guess I'm saying if we're going to drop some $$$ into this lets really step up to the technology available. Rotax has done some fantastic work on their engines. I really invision DI coming online soon with it already available on the evinrude (rotax, bombardier) marine motors. Yamaha definately has had some good technology, but the other manufactures have some great tech. too. Arctic Cat (suzuki) has some great technology on their new sleds. All of their sleds are batteryless EFI and the newer engines have the intake and exhaust on the same side of the cylinders.<p>Just a few things to digest. My $.02 for whats its worth.<p>Thanx, Coop
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coop_deville12@yahoo.com

Dirk in Portland

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#7 Post by Dirk in Portland » Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:19 pm

Coop,<p>You raise some great points. The AAEN V4 looks like a great package. Any idea how much $ ? I have to admit that I know very little about what the sled guys are doing these days, but it sounds like the development has continued on a strong path, whereas bike 2 stroke development has been pretty stagnant for the last 20 years. The reason I mentioned making new upper cases is because it's something I know I can do. The idea of heads with interchangeable inserts is a great idea and readily doable. If we design it to work with o-rings instead of steel head gaskets it would be pretty easy to experiment with different compression ratios, squish clearances, and dome shapes.<p>Speaking of the group buy, any idea how many owners would be interested in something like the AAEN or some alternative? One alternative would be to buy AAEN V4 components and make a new main case that would utilize the RZ transmission. I don't know what this would cost, but my guess is $6,000 to $8,000 out the door with customer supplied trans. <p>What do you think?<p>Thanks,<p>Dirk
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dirkandpamellis@comcast.net

Coop

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#8 Post by Coop » Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:42 pm

Dirk, It sounds like you're pretty interested in this as am I. I love my RZ, but it just won't keep up with my new R1 after 100mph. However it is still the funnest bike I've ever rode. Even funner than the RZ350s my dad used to build. The R1 is great but its power is so linear that you reach warp speed and don't know it until you're there. The 2 strokes power band is funner IMO. Never thought I'd complain about something being too smooth. Oh well.<p>Anyways, I've requested info on the V4 AAEN 800. I'm guessing 7-10k for the motor and for pipes to be fitted. Tranny is the real question. <br>-Option 1- fit it with sled clutches that run to a jack shaft mounted to the frame with a sprocket on it.<br>-Option 2- Build new cases to utilize the existing tranny. AAEN might not be willing to supply just components.<br>-Option 3- Build cases to house the tranny, like a harley<p>Or we can work on the existing motor. Which most people will probably be interested in. The upper cases sound like the most cost effective. Maybe we can talk to AAEN about their injection set up and whats required. Or maybe utilize two injection units from the Arctic Cat Twins. The units are batteryless and a company call boondocker performance makes control boxes similar to the dynojet boxes for bikes. I'm researching what it'll take to utilize yamaha's DCS (detonation control system) on the RZ. The system automatically retards timing in 3 degree increments when detonation occurs then advances it in 1 degree steps when the det. stops. Polaris also uses this type of system on their sleds, but yamaha was the first to develop it. I think this is yamaha's last year with the 2 stroke snowmobiles so maybe they would release some of that technology to the consumer. You should really look into the sled industry when it comes to 2 strokes. For the Western riders the two strokes are still the way to go as far as Power to weight ratio is considered. <p>It would be great to plug our RZ's into the laptop or Palm pilot and tune it. <br>I guess for cost concerns using TZR250 cylinders with new heads and a fuel injection unit would be great. It would probably be the easiest to do also. Or possibly using YZ125 cylinders as there's a lot of Big bore kits out there. <p>http://www.cpcracing.com/site/256083/pa ... m<p>Here's some companies that produce billet cylinders and motors. Most of them are big bore kits for sleds. 200hp and up . That might be another option, to have a company produce . It'll just take some research. Maybe new 9-10 port cylinders with IT175 sleaves, new billet heads,dual injectors per cylinder, DCS, ski-doo style Exhaust valves, all with a programmable ignition and injection box. <br>700cc, 140+ reliable hp. Sounds like a goal to me. <p>Thanks for the reply. Coop<p>'85 RD500 w/ZXR400H SP front end <br>'04 R1 (commuter)<br>'01 Polaris 700 RMK 150hp<br>'95 Polaris storm 140mph 860 big bore
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Sven

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#9 Post by Sven » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:06 am

Where would the pipes fit on the bike with 700cc of gas to get rid of?
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svenhoik@optusnet.com.au

wolfgang

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#10 Post by wolfgang » Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:25 am

Lets first try to figure out how many of us want 200hp. Not me. Having a strong engine would be fine, I agree, but not many of us have the skills to setup a proper chassis and suspension to handle 200hp I am afraid. Putting such engine in a stock RZ500 frame is useless.<p>I assume the majority of us would be looking at no more than 120-140 hp with fair midrange and good rideability. I prefer the idea with the new engine case and cylinders over any completely new engine. I would still like to ride a RD500 not a POLARIS etc. Would be the wrong board then too, wouldn

coop

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#11 Post by coop » Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:40 pm

Wolfgang, I agrre with you 100%. My new R1 with 170 hp demands my respect everytime I ride it. I remember riding my dad's H1 or H2 700 dragbike that dynoed at 170hp. Totally different than the R1. It was scary. I don't want that in the RZ. I do like the 2stroke punch though, but I don't want to be thrown off the bike. <p>It just sucks that yamaha has never made some of the new technology available for the greatest replica bike ever made for the street. I was saying to utilize some of the new tech. on new YZ125 cylinders or something (TZR). <p>Some of the snowmobile performance companies manufacture big bore cylinders for the yamaha viper (700cc triple) with the gas poered exhaust valves. These motors are pumping out 240 hp. We don't need that kind of hp in the rz, maybe in a R6 sleeper. More reliable hp with a nice torgue band would be nice though. <p>Fuel infection would be nice, I mean if Suzuki can put a batteryless injection on their 140hp 700cc twin why can't I have it? Or if everybody has billet replacable dome heads on their 2 strokes (bikes, jet skis, sleds, etc.) why can't we?<p>I know its going to be some work but lets catch up to the tech thats available. I know I can get most 600s and stock 750s, but I have to ride my butt off to embarass the 1000s in the twisties.<p>I know their are the loyalists who want to keep their bikes stock or near stock. I want to keep mine reliable but have more power without wicked port work and race pipes. I don't want a Yamaris either. <p>If anyone else has any ideas lets here them. thanks again. Coop<p>'85 RD500/zxr400 sp front<br>'04 R1 (commuter)<br>'01 polaris 700 rmk<br>'95 polaris storm sks 860 big bore<br>'99 skidoo 600 summit
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James Hunter (CLUB RZ Aus

Re: RE: NEW Cast cylinders or Top Case for the RZ500???

#12 Post by James Hunter (CLUB RZ Aus » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:02 am

Just a thought, but has anyone ever read the article about Kenny Roberts 1984 Daytona winning Yamaha OW69 that had 110KW at 138Kg wet and did 315Km per/hr and this bike was a square four 2 stroke of 595m3 but was refered to as a 680. It was on page 31 of the Australian 1984 August edition of Two Wheels magazine. It was considered at the time as the fastest road racer ever built, the story was done by John Ulrich. Which lends the question, would'nt a 550cc big bore kit from Nikon pipes in the UK be the go as far as getting more power out of the motor along with pipes, pod filters and all of the TSI mods, what do you guys think, besides who wants to go 260 + Km on a 20 year old bike anyway, death on a stick unless Mick Costin put one in his frame kit, now that would somehting ye ha.
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